>> Hi, I'm Lewis Howes, "New York Times" best-selling author and entrepreneur.

And welcome to "The School of Greatness," where we interview the most influential minds and leaders in the world to inspire you to live your best life today.

In this episode, we sit down with Evy Poumpouras.

She is a best-selling author and keynote speaker who served as a member of the most prestigious protection force in the world for over 12 years, the Secret Service.

When she wasn't protecting presidents, she was working complex criminal investigations, operating undercover, and being an interrogator for the agency's elite polygraph unit that's specifically trained in the art of lie detection, human behavior, and cognitive influence.

Today, she shares insights such as knowing how to master your relationships with everyone around you, how to become the most effective communicator, why trust is so important, and how to build overall confidence in the way you show up in your life.

I'm so glad you're here today, so let's dive in and let the class begin.

♪ ♪ What happens when people avoid conflict as much as possible as opposed to leaning into it and being comfortable with the discomfort of conflict.

>> That is very dangerous and it is very bad.

>> To avoid it?

>> To avoid it because -- I'm not telling you to go look for it.

>> Uh-huh.

>> Avoid it to certain degrees when it's noise, when it's chatter.

Like, people talk to me about politics all the time because I was a former Secret Service.

I don't participate.

To me, it's noise, it's chatter.

I don't share and I never speak about the people that I had access to who are protected.

>> Sure.

>> So it doesn't matter to me.

>> But a conflict between relationships with friends or family or coworkers.

>> So if it's important to you, you should address it.

What you do is it causes long-term regret.

>> If you don't address it?

>> If you don't address it.

It causes you to build up resentment, anger, bitterness and hate.

That's where that comes from.

>> And the other person doesn't even know what they did, maybe.

>> Maybe they know, but if you don't check them -- Because from time to time in life, you have to -- I say check.

My queen's coming out.

But when I say check, address it.

>> Yeah, check in with them.

>> Yes, "You said this.

This is how I see this."

And when you debate something with people, use language that's factual.

"You said this, you said this, you said this," rather than, "I feel this way, I feel that way."

That's what happens is we get lost a little bit.

>> So instead of saying, "I feel this," you say, "I heard you say this" or "You said this"?

>> "When you said this to me"... >> "When you said this to me."

>> ..."okay, this is how I took it, this is why it's upsetting to me."

Okay?

"Is this how you see me?

Is this true?"

>> Mm.

>> We also have to check in with ourself sometimes.

You know, we provoke people or we can be difficult people to deal with.

But at the end of -- I don't know if you've noticed this.

There's this overall, this theme out there.

Everybody's a narcissist and everybody's toxic.

>> Yeah, yes.

>> Everybody else.

Right?

Everybody.

And we don't realize, one, toxic people hang out with toxic people.

So check in with yourself.

So if you're around a lot of toxic people, check in with yourself.

>> Right.

Right.

>> And then, you can't label everybody a narcissist.

You can't label everybody something just to make it okay for you.

>> And to put blame on someone else.

You didn't do that, and, yeah.

>> Right.

Because we also have to look at what we're doing.

What are we doing?

Who are we engaging with?

How much of this stuff do we bring into our lives?

We're not always innocent.

Sometimes we are, especially in certain situations with serious trauma or abuse, especially with children.

There are some situations where that is completely innocent.

But then, if you see a pattern in your life, if you see this, you have to find a way where you are not afraid to speak.

>> Why is it so scary for people to speak about a disagreement or a conflict?

>> One, because the theme is to avoid it.

Avoid the stuff, avoid confrontation.

Conflict and confrontation have a very negative tone, stigma.

And I always tell people, embrace confrontation.

When I worked in the White House, you have the Cabinet Room.

The president sits in one seat, then you have all the heads of the different departments.

The whole goal of the Cabinet Room was to debate things.

>> Mm.

>> So instead of if somebody says to you or your boss says to you, "I didn't like the way this was done.

Do it this way next time."

And you hear, "He doesn't like me," there's an issue there.

>> Yeah, taking it too personal.

>> Your identity is becoming tied into everything.

Whereas, can you just hear what he said or she said?

They're telling you they didn't like the way this was done to be effective, right, and execute quickly to get things done.

They're just telling you I don't like it.

I want it done this way.

And, so, we've lost that ability, too, to not make everything about us.

We're also in this very me, me, me, me, me, me, me space.

Everything's me, me, me, me.

And we don't think about the other person across from us.

What are they dealing with?

It's my boss.

There's a deadline, they're just trying to communicate with me in an efficient way.

One of the blessings that I had from being in the Secret Service, there was no -- It was just very direct.

"Hey, this wasn't supposed to be done this way.

Get it done this way."

>> Do people take it personally?

>> Zero.

>> Really?

>> And we were so much more efficient.

>> Did they train you on how to not take things personally?

Or was that just the culture and you had to learn quickly, otherwise, you would suffer?

>> I think, when you go through training itself, they put you in very stressful situations.

You begin to understand that this isn't about me, that you're about a collective unit or team.

You are there for the other person, you're there -- There's human life on the line, so you really understand the bigger concept and idea, and then you understand, too, what is the goal or the mission?

The goal is to protect the president.

The goal is to solve this case.

You understand that there's a goal.

You are less likely, very less likely to take things -- "Oh, you don't like me."

It's like, you have nothing to do with this.

>> I would say that I used to have a fragile -- what would you call it?

-- personality, maybe, or confidence level.

And it was so challenging to receive feedback.

But the more I practiced it, I was like, okay, actually I want feedback, how can I improve to be more effective in these areas of my life?

>> But you're also thinking about, too, executing it to the best of your ability.

I want to perform my best.

>> So give me more critique or feedback, right?

Yeah.

>> You know, and I have people who work for me, as well, and I always tell them, "Don't yes me.

If you see something different, tell me."

And then, I'll make the best assessment that I can.

I don't want you to yes me because I may see something different.

I have a different background, a different mind-set.

Let me know.

We want to be told how great we are, we don't want to hear that we're making mistakes or that we're wrong.

We take it way too deeply.

And what that does, it doesn't allow us to grow.

It makes it harder for people to work with us, and in fact, a lot of companies reach out in that one of the issues that they have is communicating to their employees.

Where they want to tell them, "We want you to do this task this way."

And when they speak to their employees, the employee hears something else.

They get very upset.

They get sensitive about it.

They're like, "We don't know how to dialog with them to make them care about the task.

Everything becomes about them personally."

>> What they're not doing right or something or how they're -- >> Yes.

How am I perceived?

What do people think of me?

And at the core, it does come from our insecurity.

>> It's really hard, after a first impression, to change your mind about someone.

Right?

Once you see them or you meet with them for a second or you talk to them for 30 seconds, you kind of have made up, probably, a lot of your bias about that person, right?

If that is so important, the first impression, to building influential relationships, what would you say is the thing that we should be thinking about every time we meet someone new, whether it be a stranger or an important meeting?

>> The majority of what we communicate with people, if we look at the science -- and this is truly science based -- is almost 70% of what you communicate with people is this, your body.

And people don't pay attention to it.

So when they're sitting in a meeting, something as simple as having very poor posture, so slouching the whole time.

Sit up, show them you're there, taking space.

So, if I take space -- So if I was doing this interview with you and I just was kind of sitting like this... >> Right.

>> ...I'm conveying to everybody out there, I'm not sure of myself, I don't feel comfortable, I'm insecure.

You're going to make an assessment of me.

But when you take up space, when you open yourself up, it shows I matter, I'm here.

And people throw that out.

The other thing is power linguistics is powerful, what you sound like when you speak.

My tone.

>> Your tone.

>> My pitch, my voice.

This is one place where women sometimes we bring in these really high tones and these very -- my girly voice.

I can bring that in.

>> Everything's a question, also.

It's like -- >> Yes.

Did I go out last night?

You know, did I?

I had dinner?

I went with my friends?

That sends a message about who we are and who we aren't.

>> Mm-hmm.

>> People will sit and memorize a speech.

They will memorize a speech.

I have to get this perfect.

But that's only 7% of what people actually hear.

Your body, the tool, are you bringing it?

Is it engaging?

Are you connecting with people?

Do you -- Even eye contact.

Like, when you talk to someone, are you really looking at them?

Or do you break eye contact a lot?

Most of the time, we break eye contact when we talk to people, especially when we want to remember something.

But when you're really trying to bring it in a scenario, in an interview, you're hiring someone, or they're hiring you, bring it, be there.

Eye contact also conveys a huge amount of trust and a huge amount of confidence.

>> Mm-hmm.

>> So one of the things I hear is, "Oh, I'm uncomfortable with eye contact."

It's going to affect you.

>> Right.

>> Because now, when I read you, that's not a confident person.

Do I want to hire this confident person?

>> So if they're looking you in the eyes while they're communicating with you or while you're communicating with them, it shows they're more confident.

>> It conveys strength and trust, confidence in myself.

Also, eye contact, again, overwhelming -- overwhelmingly, when we look at the data and research it conveys trust.

>> It's really hard to look someone straight in the eyes and lie to them, right?

You kind of have to look away for a second, right?

>> Some people may.

It depends how good they are.

>> Do they train you how to be a great liar?

Like, do you have to learn to be a great liar in Secret Service in order to understand when someone's doing it, to see the slightest tells?

>> No.

They don't.

I was never taught to be a great liar.

I was taught how to read behavior, and even still, I continue to go to training, you know, to assess human -- It's all behavior.

What are the people showing you?

What are the indicators?

But the most important thing is when it comes to reading people, it's not about one thing somebody does.

And I see it a lot where, oh, a liar is anyone who always does this or anyone always does that.

It is seeing the person's behavior and then pulling out red flags.

So, for example, if we go -- And, actually, one of the best ways to detect deception is through verbal.

Words actually give people away a bit more.

>> Are there a set of cues that you're like, okay, I look for these five things?

>> No, nope.

>> And if four of them are off, then, it's like -- >> And this is why.

Because you may not do those things.

>> I might just be, like, a nervous person in general.

>> Yes.

>> And you're like, "Why is this person nervous?"

Well, I'm always nervous or something, right?

>> So you assess people's baseline.

Everyone's different.

So when you assess a baseline is this is who this person is in this moment.

Now, when you start asking them questions -- And you're always very courteous to me every time I come on.

"Evy, is there anything you don't want me to ask you?"

And every time I say, go ahead.

>> Yeah.

"Ask me anything."

>> Lay it on me.

I have no problem.

I mean, but then, if you ask me questions, then, if I don't like it, you'll see a deviation.

So, Evy, you know, the entire time we were speaking, she's been sitting this way, using her hands, she's expressive, using illustrators.

Then, if you ask me a question that I don't like -- >> You lean back.

You -- Yeah.

>> Well, I could just put my hands away.

Nothing more than put my hands away.

>> And I can notice, "Oh, there's a shift here."

>> What you're looking at is, what did I just do?

I asked a question or I said something or did something, and as a result of that, it caused a shift in behavior.

That's a bit of a red flag.

Now, what you do next is, why?

In your head, why did she do that?

>> You bank it in your mind.

>> Yes, now, if you're a good interviewer -- and it depends how deep you want to go -- you'll ask me questions about it.

>> That topic that made you feel there was a shift, yeah.

>> There was a shift.

"Ooh, there's something here.

Ooh, I want to know.

Oh, what is she hiding?

Oh, what is the story there that I want to know about?"

That can do that.

For other people, I could just be sitting here the whole time.

You ask me a question, I could do something as simple as put my hand over my mouth right before I answer you.

Again, everybody doesn't do it.

But you could say, "Why did she just put her hand over her mouth?"

But the thing is, what did I do?

What did I say that caused her to do that?

The goal is for you to be not afraid to ask questions.

The majority of the population, very fear based.

We don't like confrontation.

We don't want to push through or ask and we let things go.

Instead of being curious, You're curious about people.

You're fascinated by people.

I am, too.

I listen to people.

I love to hear their story.

And when you talk to them, they will tell you what they want to tell you and they'll leave some stuff out.

And you can -- Can't you tell sometimes the parts that they leave out of themselves.

>> Yeah.

>> That they just don't want to share?

>> Right?

There's like something missing there.

The energy shifts, the behavior shifts.

It's behavior.

I think people say energy because they just don't know how to define it.

>> Right.

>> So study a person's baseline, and you can do it within seconds, too.

So when you're connecting with people, what you also probably don't realize is that what you're doing is intuitively, Lewis, you're reading people, you're getting the picture.

>> Absolutely.

>> You're getting a sense of who they are.

>> Yeah.

And I guess it depends on if you're meeting someone for the first time versus we've met each other before, so the energy or the behavior can be shifted, I guess.

But I always try to -- and I think I did this with you -- when someone walks through the door, I try to open my arms.

I think right away I was just like, "Hey," you know, I opened my arms.

>> High five on that one.

>> I try to open my arms and really just kind of be, you know, a joyful person, whether it's someone I know or someone I'm just meeting.

Because I want people to people to feel like this is a safe space and this is a joyful place and I'm a safe human being.

You know, I'm not going to hurt anyone here.

>> So let me ask you a question.

>> And I also know I'm much bigger than a lot of people.

>> Did anybody teach you that, or is that something you normally do on your own?

>> I've just done it for years.

I can't think if someone taught me, I don't remember.

But I've just always kind of been this -- Because I think, when I started doing it, probably in my teens or early 20s, I was like, oh, people are much more receptive to this.

You know, there's probably a reward for that behavior based on what I was doing.

So like, oh, let me just always be this way, you know?

>> So, actually, there's a term for that.

It's called an open posture, welcoming posture.

So it's a wild because you do it intuitively.

>> Right.

>> So this is, when you want people to not feel intimidated, you want people to connect with you, what you want to do is exactly what you did.

So, and supervisors, anybody out there, listen up.

If this is you want to connect with people or people are intimidated by you, open posture.

So I'm open.

My hands are out.

My hands are open, too.

Nothing's in my hands.

So it's -- And you said, "I'm safe."

>> Mm-hmm.

>> I'm not hiding anything.

I don't have anything.

My hands aren't my pockets.

I don't have anything in my hands, I'm open, I'm safe.

That's one of the first things they teach you in the foundation when it came to negotiation and interviewing school.

Have an open posture when you speak to people.

This is the open posture.

Exactly what you do with everybody you meet.

And it's smart that you do that because it's disarming.

They feel relaxed, they feel welcomed, they feel open, they connect with you, and you're going to have a better interview.

>> Unconsciously, the person's going to feel safe, whether they're even aware that I'm doing that or not, right?

I even try to be conscious -- I move my hands a lot on my table and I cover my chin, or I'm thinking, but I always try to go back to having my hands open here, even just in a relaxed position.

I don't know if you noticed that.

Or I'll bring them to the side here so you can see them.

Or I kind of have them here in like an open clasp position.

>> So the hands, again, is the same thing.

You keep your hands -- And I don't want to say -- It's it's not always a sign of deception, but one of the things they did... >> If you put it underneath.

>> ...teach you is just, when you're talking to people and you see the hands disappear.

So you see somebody's hands, they sit on their hands or their hands are under the table, never great signs.

It doesn't mean -- Again, it's just a red flag.

So, if I have my hands up here, you ask me a question that I don't like and my hands go down here, you should take note.

Why did Evy do that?

What did I just do that caused her to do that?

When you're communicating with people, again, connection, connection, connection.

Why does it matter?

And not that you want to be nice to people.

It's not about being nice.

It is about negotiating.

It's about communicating.

It's about connecting.

When you do all these things, you will be more successful.

People will want to work with you, they will want to date you, they will want to be around you, they will want you -- They will want to be in your vicinity.

This makes your life so much better because everyone sits and they memorize strategies and tactics and techniques.

You are dealing with people, at the end of the day.

You master people, you will master everything.

>> Mm.

What are some of the key strategies to mastering them, in business and relationships, without people feeling like they're manipulating or creating a toxic environment with those individuals?

>> I'm going to give you an example or analogy.

You work out every day, right?

Let's say you work out every day, you're getting tough, you're muscular, you're strong, you're all that, right?

Could you use that to help people, to help save people, keep people safe?

>> Absolutely.

>> Could you also use that to harm people?

>> Mm-hmm.

>> So this is the same thing.

So all this stuff that we talk about, could somebody use it to harm someone?

Yes.

It's like anything.

You could take something that's meant to be positive and twist it.

But I'll tell you this, when you come from a genuine place, people feel it.

>> Mm-hmm.

>> When you are doing it with the goal to manipulate people, people feel that, too.

>> What do you think are the subtle cues that people could tell if someone's trying to be more manipulative or more from a place of power, control, competition, rather than a genuineness, where it's, like, subtle, it's not as clear?

>> When I hear certain things, when people try very hard to oversell.

>> This is a guarantee.

This is going to happen no matter what.

This is easy.

You know, all these things.

>> Those are always red flags.

I'm always thinking, why is this person trying so hard to sell me?

I feel that I'm being sold.

Versus, "Look, I'm going to work with you.

I'll do everything I can."

You can connect with people, and there's a genuine part that comes through.

But it's also, does the behavior match what they say?

So, if somebody's saying, "I'm going to do this, you're so important to me.

You're my most important client.

You're my this, you're my that."

But then, they don't call back.

They don't answer their cell phone, or when you do call, "Hey, I've got two minutes.

I'm super busy."

They don't deliver.

When they don't do those things, that tells you what?

>> It's like trusting to an extent.

Okay, you're selling me, you're going to do something.

I trust you, and let's see if the behaviors continue to match the words.

>> I'll even better you this.

You don't want to give unconditional trust.

There's certain levels of trust.

You give conditional trust.

>> What's the difference?

>> Conditional trust is, I give you a little bit here, a little bit here, a little bit here.

But what we do is, "Oh, my God, I love Lewis, he's great."

Which you are, right?

"I'm going to give him all my trust, I'm going to tell him everything."

And then, I get confused as to why do I feel betrayed later?

Why do I this?

Because you just gave it away like it's nothing.

It's like you just took all the money out of your wallet and you just did this.

>> Right.

>> When you go to the store, what do you do?

You ask, "How much is that?

Let me give you exactly what it costs."

So you should be that way with your trust.

You shouldn't be like just giving it out to people.

It's conditional.

>> Should we be thinking about ourselves and saying, "I trust myself enough where I can be vulnerable and open with people no matter how they receive it"?

Or should we hold back who we are or some things about us to protect ourselves or to feel if they're trustworthy enough to have that information?

>> Yes, to the latter.

>> Really?

Interesting.

>> When people feel too comfortable with you, they will challenge you more.

>> In what ways?

>> They will test you more, they will push back more the more comfortable people feel with you.

Think of it -- the people that know you the best in life, they push you back, they push back the most.

They'll call you out the most.

And sometimes not in a healthy way -- in an unpleasant way.

There's something powerful with keeping some things about you to you.

You don't have to be an open book.

I know this goes against a lot of be vulnerable, be vulnerable.

I'm not telling you to be a jerk and I'm not telling you to conceal everything about you.

But what I'm telling you is you need to have a filter.

>> Mm-hmm.

>> Nobody needs to know -- People don't need to know everything about you.

Keep that stuff to yourself.

>> When you want to get information out of someone, boyfriend or girlfriend, whatever, is it more effective to ask a direct question -- did you do this, or you did this?

-- or is it better to ask an open-ended question and see what happens next?

>> So, direct questions are not good, and this is why.

Most people do this, they go in for the kill, so to speak, and they get garbage.

You want to let people adjust.

It's almost like you put their feet in the water, in the pool.

Your feet, when you go into the ocean, you acclimate to the water.

Some people dive in, yes.

>> Sometimes I jump in 'cause it's too cold to just tiptoe in.

>> But for the most part, the idea is you acclimate, and then, by the time you get in, you're the same temperature.

When you speak to people, then that's the way to do it.

And you don't have to get the information in that moment.

You want to work on people over time.

So you want to get admissions, which is pieces of information.

If we make it about a crime, per se, right, rather than going, "Did you do this?

Did you do this to this person?"

And I would never say steal.

It sounds ugly.

>> You take this.

>> Even if somebody lies.

"Hey, man, you're lying to me."

Ohh.

Lewis is like, "Uh, no."

Lewis, you're not -- There's something you're missing, there's something you didn't tell me.

I feel there's a part of the story I'm missing here.

I want you to be comfortable enough to tell me.

>> So you would say that?

>> Yeah.

>> Ah, interesting.

>> Sounds different.

So that's one.

Think about the words coming out of your mouth.

What do I sound like?

And then, more importantly, what do they hear when I speak?

Not what do I think I'm saying?

Because everyone's like, "Oh, I just said this.

What did I say?"

It doesn't matter what you think you said.

What matters is what they hear when you speak based off of their viewpoint, their biases, their DNA, their genetic makeup, their drama, their trauma.

All their stuff.

Because they bring that in when they communicate.

So you have to keep that in mind.

>> Are you trying to learn about the background of the person before you have a connection -- or a conversation with them and get as much information on them before?

>> Depends what you want.

>> Yeah.

>> What is your goal?

What are you looking to get?

And, obviously, sometimes time's a factor.

If you're hiring somebody, here's some tips.

When you're doing your job interviews or you're bringing people on or you're working with people, you want to sit them down.

You don't want to sit like the way we are here with a table between you and the person.

You want an open space.

So you've got like two -- Put them on the sofas.

Sit down.

That's openness.

This is a barrier.

>> Uh-huh.

>> It causes a break between us.

There's also a formality with the table.

I feel like I'm being interviewed.

>> More professional, as opposed to relaxed.

>> Yes.

And the thing is this.

If you want to know who you're hiring, let's say, or who you're dealing with or who you're bringing into your space, you want openness and you want them to speak to you in an open way... >> Freely.

>> ...so you can get all the information.

"Tell me about yourself.

How did you grow up?"

The whole goal is to be curious, and, so, if we can give it a term, maybe, you need to Lewis Howes yourself.

>> There you go.

Yeah.

>> When people come in, you are super curious about them.

You care about everybody who comes in.

"Who's coming in?

I want to know everything I can about them, what they're willing to share.

I want them to feel comfortable, to open up.

I get a great interview.

My viewers love it.

Boom."

This is like this with everything else.

If you can bring that level of passion and curiosity with people, everyone's going to be open books.

>> Yes.

My final question for you, Evy, what's your definition of greatness?

>> If tomorrow were to be my last day and I'm okay to go, then I've lived a great life.

If tomorrow were to be my last day and I'm not okay to go, then that means I've not lived a great life and I need to lock it up and change something.

>> Mm.

>> It's not, will I live it later on?

I'll do it later.

It's right now.

Tomorrow is your last day.

Am I okay to go?

I'm okay to go.

>> Mm-hmm.

We hope you enjoyed this episode and found it valuable.

Make sure to stay tuned for more from "The School of Greatness" coming soon on public television.

Again, I'm Lewis Howes.

And if no one has told you lately, I want to remind you that you are loved, you are worthy, and you matter.

And now it's time to go out there and do something great.

If you'd like to continue on the journey of greatness with me, please check out my web site, lewishowes.com, where you'll find over 1,000 episodes of "The School of Greatness" show, as well as tools and resources to support you in living your best life.

>> The online course Find Your Greatness is available for $19.

Drawn from the lessons Lewis Howes shares in "The School of Greatness," this interactive course will guide you through a step-by-step process to discover your strengths, connect to your passion and purpose, and help create your own blueprint for greatness.

To order, go to lewishowes.com/TV.

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