HELLO, EVERYONE.

HERE'S WHAT IS COMING UP.

>> I BELIEVE WHAT I AM DOING IS PAVING MY WAY HOME.>>> AS CHINA TIGHTENS ITS GRIP ON HONG KONG, I TALK ABOUT WHAT IT'S LIKE LIVING WITH A BOUNTY ON HIS HEAD.>> CLASS, DEFINITELY.

AND I'M TRYING TO JUGGLE ALL OF THESE DIFFERENT THEMES.>> IN HIS NEW BOOK, COLSON WHITEHEAD RETURNS TO THE UNDERBELLY OF 1970s HARLEM.>> THERE WAS SO MUCH EXPECTATION WHEN IT CAME TO STUDENT LOANS BEING FORGIVEN AND WHEN THE SUPREME COURT STRUCK THAT DOWN, PEOPLE FELT LEFT OUT.>> WITH THE END OF STUDENT LOAN FORGIVENESS LIVING, WE SPEAK WITH A FINANCIAL EXPERT, AND A FINAL FAREWELL TO JANE BIRKIN.

SHE INSPIRED FASHION, FILM, AND SONG.

>>> -- >>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

WE BEGIN WITH BEIJING TIGHTENING THE SCREWS ON HONG KONG.

AFTER A TOP CHINESE INTELLIGENCE OFFICIAL WAS CHOSE TO LEAVE THE NATIONAL SECURITY REGIME AS CHINA BOLSTERS EFFORTS TO TRACK DOWN THE LEADERS OF THE PRO-DEMOCRACY MOVEMENT PUTTING BOUNTIES ON THE HEADS OF OUTSPOKEN ACTIVISTS.

WESTERN NATIONS HAVE CONDEMNED THIS AND JAMES CLEVERLY SAID THIS EARLIER THIS MONTH.

WE WILL NOT TOLERATE ANY ATTEMPT BY CHINA TO INTIMIDATE AND SILENCE INDIVIDUALS IN THE UK AND OVERSEAS.

THE UK WILL ALWAYS DEFEND THE UNIVERSAL RIGHTS OF FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION AND STAND UP TO THOSE WHO ARE TARGETED.

HE CALLED ON THE TERRITORY TO REMOVE THE NATIONAL SECURITY LAW, WHICH IS THE SWEEPING LEGISLATION BROUGHT INTO FORCE IN JUNE OF 2020 AFTER YEARS OF LARGE PRO-DEMOCRACY DEMONSTRATIONS.

HUNDRETHS HAVE BEEN ARRESTED AND IT HAS DEVASTATED THE CITY'S FREEDOM AND CREATED A HUMAN RIGHTS EMERGENCY.

HONG KONG SAID IT IS ESSENTIAL FOR NATIONAL SECURITY.

EARLIER THIS WEEK I SPOKE WITH ONE OF THE DISSIDENTS LIVING IN EXILE.

HE WAS FORCED TO FLEE HIS HOME.

NATHAN IS ONE OF EIGHT ACTIVISTS BEING SOUGHT BY THE POLICE WHO ARE OFFERING $128,000 FOR INFORMATION LEADING TO HIS ARREST.

HERE IS OUR CONVERSATION.

THANK YOU FOR JOINING THE PROGRAM.

IT IS JUST OVER TWO WEEKS AGO THAT THE HONG KONG POLICE ISSUED A $128,000 VALUE BOUNTY FOR 8 OVERSEAS, PRO-DEMOCRACY ACTIVISTS.

ITS LARGEST BOUNTY OFFERED BY HONG KONG POLICE.

THE MAXIMUM SENTENCE IS A LIFETIME SENTENCE.

HOW DO YOU FEEL ABOUT YOUR OWN SECURITY RIGHT NOW?>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME ON THE SHOW.

IT IS A SHOCK BECAUSE IT IS UNPRECEDENTED.

THERE HAS NEVER BEEN ANYONE WHO IS BEING AWARDED THIS LARGE AMOUNT OF MONEY.

THE POLICE HAVE SAID THEY WILL PURSUE US OR LIVE.

FOR ME, IT IS SHOCKING NEWS, BUT NOT THE FIRST TIME I AM WANTED.

AND, FOR ME, I HAVE BEEN AWARE OF MY SURROUNDINGS AND WHERE I GO.

I WILL CONTINUE MY ADVOCACY WORK AND TRY TO PROTECT MYSELF WHILE DOING THIS.

>> YOU SAID YOU VIEW THIS MORE AS A BADGE OF HONOR.

EXPLAIN HOW.>> FOR ME, IT'S UNAVOIDABLE TO BE PERSECUTED BY THE REGIME BECAUSE PEOPLE RESISTING UNDER THE AUTHORITARIAN REGIME, IT IS BASICALLY TRYING TO DISRUPT THIS REGIME AND THEY WILL GO AFTER YOU.

FOR ME, IT'S NOT A SURPRISE THAT THEY WILL CONTINUE TO PERSECUTE ME AND PUT THESE CHARGES ON MY NAME.

IT IS ALSO A REFLECTION OF THE ADVOCACY WORK I'M DOING AND HOW MUCH CHANGE WE'VE MANAGED TO MOBILIZE SO THAT THE REGIME IS SCARED OF US AND TRYING TO PUT EXTRA PRESSURE ON US TO SILENCE US.>> THE ALLEGED CRIMES YOU'RE BEING CHARGED WITH INCLUDE INCITEMENT TO SECESSION AND COLLUSION WITH A FOREIGN FORCE OR EXTERNAL ELEMENT TO ENDANGER NATIONAL SECURITY.

HOW DO YOU RESPOND TO THOSE CHARGES?>> FOR ME, WHEN THEY ARE IN HONG KONG, IT'S IMPOSSIBLE FOR THEM TO DO ANY POLITICAL WORK.

THE NATIONAL SECURITY LAW CRIMINALIZED FREE SPEECH.

AND WHOEVER SPEAKS AGAINST THE CHINESE GOVERNMENT, MOST LIKELY, THEY WILL END UP IN JAIL.

FOR ME, I DUTY IS TO SPEAK UP FOR THEM AND ALL THE HEARINGS AND CONGRESSIONAL MEETINGS WITH ALL THE POLITICIANS, I DO IT FOR HONG KONG PEOPLE.

I AM NOT AN AGENT OF ANY KIND AND ALL THESE THINGS SHOULD FALL INTO A LAWFUL AND LEGAL POLITICAL ACTIVISTS WORK IF I WAS IN ANOTHER COUNTRY.>> THAT LAW WAS INTRODUCED IN 2020.

JUST NOW WE HEAR CHINA HAS APPOINTED A TOP INTELLIGENCE OFFICER TO RUN HONG KONG'S NATIONAL SECURITY OFFICE.

IN ADDITION TO THAT, HONG KONG IS PREPARED TO ANNOUNCE A NEW LAW CALLED ARTICLE 23 THAT WILL ALLOW OFFICIALS TO ENCOMPASS ESPIONAGE AND TREASON AMONG OTHER FENCES THAT WERE NOT INCLUDED IN THE INITIAL 2020 SECURITY LEGISLATION.

TALK ABOUT THE SIGNIFICANCE OF THAT AND THIS NEW ELEMENT IN TERMS OF DOUBLING DOWN ON NATIONAL SECURITY AND THE INTRODUCTION OF A NEW OFFICER THERE.>> WELL, THE UPCOMING LEGISLATION WILL BE A HUGE BLOW FOR ANY FOREIGN ENTITIES OPERATING IN HONG KONG.

FOR EVEN GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS BECAUSE, I THINK, IT IS MOST LIKELY A PREPARATION FOR THE ATTACK ON TAIWAN BECAUSE THEY BELIEVE HONG KONG IS FULL OF FOREIGN AGENTS.

SO THEY WILL IMPLEMENT THIS LAW TO BASICALLY GO AFTER PEOPLE WHO THEY THINK THEY MAY HELP.

OR MAY HELP TAIWAN ARE COUNTRIES THAT CHINA DOES NOT LIKE.

THERE WILL BE A BIG WAVE OF PERSECUTION OF FOREIGN ENTITIES OR EVEN PEOPLE THEY SEE THEM AS A SPY NO MATTER WHETHER THEY ARE OR NOT.

THIS IS ACTUALLY A SCARY TIME.

NOT ONLY FOR THE LOCAL PEOPLE WHO FACE THE POLICE BRUTALITY AND POLITICAL PERSECUTION BUT FOR PEOPLE WHO ARE FROM OTHER COUNTRIES.

THEY WILL FACE THE SAME AMOUNT OF PRESSURE.>> UNDER THIS NATIONAL SECURITY LAW, AUTHORITIES HAVE SWEEPING POWER AND ENJOY IMMUNITY FROM THE CITY LAWS THAT HAVE BEEN IN PLACE BEFORE IT.

WHAT DO YOU SAY TO THOSE IN TERMS OF THE EXTRADITION FOR YOU AND YOUR ARREST THAT OTHER COUNTRIES ALSO HAVE EXTRADITION LAWS.

HOW DOES THIS MAKE IT ANY DIFFERENT FROM WHAT WE SEE IN THE UNITED STATES?

WE ALSO HAVE EXTRADITION LAWS WITH OTHER COUNTRIES AROUND THE WORLD.

WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE?>> IN THESE EXTRADITION AGREEMENTS, WE DON'T EXTRADITE PEOPLE BECAUSE OF POLITICAL INCLINATION.

FOR COUNTRIES THAT HAVE ANY EXTRADITION WITH HOMELAND CHINA, MOST LIKELY THEY WILL NOT ACCEPT IT.

FOR MANY COUNTRIES LIKE THE UK AND OTHER EUROPEAN COUNTRIES, THEY HAVE ALREADY UPLIFT THE EXTRADITION TREATY WITH HONG KONG BECAUSE THEY FOR SAW THAT HONG KONG GOVERNMENT -- IN ORDER TO BELIEVE TO ACHIEVE POLITICAL GAINS.

HAVE TO CHOOSE MY DESTINATION VERY CAREFULLY.

COUNTRIES AND OTHER PARTS OF THE WORLD AND ALSO AVOID GOING TO COUNTRIES WHERE THEY ARE VERY CLOSE TO CHINA.>> WE KNOW THAT YOUR FAMILY HOME WAS RAIDED LAST WEEK.

YOUR PARENTS AND YOUR BROTHER WERE TAKEN IN FOR INTERROGATION AND QUESTIONING BY HONG KONG POLICE.

WHAT MORE DO YOU KNOW ABOUT WHAT TRANSPIRED?>> I DO NOT HAVE ANY DIRECT CONTACT WITH THEM.

IT IS WORRYING, TO SOME EXTENT, TERRIFYING.

FOR ME, IT IS CLEAR THAT THEY ARE IN NO WAY SUPPORTING ME BECAUSE THE WAY THE GOVERNMENT WANTED TO FABRICATE STORIES THAT I'M BEING SUPPORTED BY THE PEOPLE THAT THEY INTERROGATE HER ARREST, WHICH THIS IS NOT TRUE.

I'M DOING THIS WORK IN MY PERSONAL CAPACITY AND I PICKED -- I TAKE ALL RESPONSIBILITY FOR MY ACTIONS.

NOBODY TAKES RESPONSIBILITY BECAUSE OF WHAT I DO, AND IF THE GOVERNMENT IS TRYING TO PURSUE ME FOR LIFE, PLEASE DO IT, JUST DO NOT DO IT TO THE OTHERS.>> DO YOU THINK THESE TACTICS -- I SPOKE WITH ANOTHER ACTIVIST AND HE SAID HE WAS FORCED TO CUT OFF ALL RELATIONS WITH HIS FAMILY IN ORDER TO OFFER THEM MORE SECURITY.

DO YOU FIND YOURSELF IN A SIMILAR POSITION?

DO YOU THINK THESE INTIMIDATION TACTICS COULD WORK?>> WHEN I LEFT HONG KONG THREE YEARS AGO, I ALREADY ISSUED A STATEMENT THAT I'M SEPARATING TIES WITH MY FAMILY AND THEY ARE NO WAY SUPPORTING ME AND I'M DOING EVERYTHING IN MY OWN PERSONAL CAPACITY.

THE HONG KONG GOVERNMENT PUT A BOUNTY ON ME AND ARRESTED FORMER COLLEAGUES AND ARRESTED THE PEOPLE THAT I LOVE.

THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY SHOULD REACT IN A STRONGER WAY.

THERE ARE A FEW ACTIONS TAKEN BY THE BRITISH GOVERNMENT, INCLUDING SENDING THE DIPLOMATIC CALL TO THE CHINESE EMBASSY TO ANSWER THOSE QUESTIONS.

I THINK THOSE ARE STEPS FORWARD, AND I HOPE THAT OTHER COUNTRIES CAN STEP UP THEIR ACTIONS TO HOLD THESE PERPETRATORS ACCOUNTABLE.>> THE BRITISH FOREIGN OFFICE MINISTER WARNED THAT THE UK GOVERNMENT WOULD NOT TOLERATE HONG KONG'S CAMPAIGN OF FEAR INTENDED TO INTIMIDATE OR SILENCE ANY WANTED ACTIVISTS.

THE U.S., THE UK, AND AUSTRALIA HAVE HALTED EXTRADITION TREATIES WITH HONG KONG, BUT THAT DOES NOT SEEM TO BE ANY SIGN THAT THIS NATIONAL SECURITY LAW WILL BE ROLLED BACK OR DIALED BACK IN ANY SHAPE OR FORM.

DO THINK IT WILL REQUIRE MORE PRESSURE FROM SOME OF THESE WESTERN COUNTRIES?>> DEFINITELY, THERE SHOULD BE MORE PRESSURE FROM OTHER COUNTRIES TOWARD THE CHINESE GOVERNMENT IN HONG KONG GOVERNMENT FOR THESE PERSECUTIONS.

FOR ME, IT'S A MATTER OF WHETHER WE CAN MAKE CHINA AWARE THAT THE PATH THEY ARE WALKING, WHICH IS TOTALLY AUTHORITARIAN, IS NO LONGER SERVING THEIR GOOD.

UNLESS THEY UNDERSTAND THAT, THE PATHWAY THEY ARE TAKING FORWARD IS NO LONGER WORKING, IT'S DIFFICULT FOR US TO HAVE A TURNING POINT IN HONG KONG.

FOR ME, I'VE ALWAYS TOLD THE POLICYMAKERS THAT WE HAVE TO DOUBLE DOWN ON HER PRESSURE TO BEIJING AND REDUCE -- AND UNDERSTAND THAT WHAT THEY ARE DOING WILL HARM THEMSELVES SO WE CAN HAVE A FUTURE IN HONG KONG.>> OVER THE PAST DECADE WE'VE SEEN OPPOSITION MOVEMENTS AND PROTESTS IN HONG KONG.

THE UMBRELLA MOVEMENT AS WELL.

THE MOST RECENT PROTESTS DID TURN VIOLENT.

THERE HAVE BEEN SOME SUGGESTION, EVEN FROM WESTERN ALLIES HAVE BEEN SYMPATHETIC, THAT PERHAPS THE VIOLENCE WAS COUNTERPRODUCTIVE.

AND YOU KNOW THE CHINESE ARGUMENT THAT THESE NATIONAL SECURITY LAWS WERE PUT INTO PLACE TO RESTORE ORDER.

LOOKING BACK, WOULD HE MAKE THESE ARGUMENTS, AND DO YOU THINK THINGS COULD'VE BEEN HANDLED DIFFERENTLY, IN TERMS OF THE ACTIVISTS AND THEIR ACTIONS?>> IT IS NEVER WHAT WE WANTED, BUT IF YOU SAW THE TRAJECTORY OF HOW THIS PROCESS EVOLVES, WE CAN SEE THAT AT FIRST IT WAS PEACEFUL, BUT THE POLICE BRUTALITY WAS SO MUCH AND THEY'VE BEEN EXERTING THIS TO THE PEOPLE ON THE FRONT LINE AND THEY FELT A SENSE OF DANGER, AN IMMENSE SENSE OF DANGER AND THEY DECIDED TO ADOPT FORCE TO SELF PROTECT.

IT IS EASY TO CONDEMN THEM.

IT IS MUCH MORE DIFFICULT TO TRY TO CHANGE IT AND MAKE A WAY OUT.

AND THE WAY OUT IS WE HAVE TO IMPLEMENT ACCOUNTABILITY ON THE POLICE FORCE AND STOP THE POLICE BRUTALITY FIRST SO THAT BOTH SIDES CAN SAY WHEN THEY DO A PROTEST WHEN THEY'RE TRYING TO EXPRESS THEIR VOICE, AND THAT IS THE WAY OUT.>> THESE CHARGES THAT YOU ARE FACING COULD LEAD TO ULTIMATELY A LIFE SENTENCE IN PRISON.

YOU HAVE ALREADY SPENT TIME IN PRISON.

TWO MONTHS, I BELIEVE, IN 2017 FOR YOUR PARTICIPATION IN THE UMBRELLA MOVEMENT.

WHAT WAS THAT EXPERIENCE LIKE FOR YOU?

ARE YOU PREPARED AT SOME POINT, PERHAPS, TO CONTINUE TO FACE JAIL TIME AGAIN?>> THE FEW SHORT MONTHS THAT I SPENT IN JAIL WAS RELATIVELY SHORT COMPARED TO THE ONES WHO ARE SPENDING TIME IN JAIL NOW IN HONG KONG.

DEFINITELY, I HAD A FEELING OF HOW IT LOOKS LIKE TO STAY BEHIND BARS.

YOU'RE TREATED LIKE A NUMBER.

THEY WOULD CALL YOU BY YOUR NUMBER, AND THE ONLY THING YOU CAN SAY TO OFFICERS INSIDE WERE SORRY, SIR, THANK YOU SIR, AND YES, SIR.

YOU CANNOT SAY NO.

THAT IS HOW DEHUMANIZING AND HOW THEY WANT TO BLUNT YOUR CRITICAL THINKING WHILE YOU ARE SERVING TIME.

IT WAS NOT A PLEASANT TIME AND I THINK FOR NOW THE POLITICAL SITUATION HAS WORSENED SO THAT THE CONDITIONS IN JAIL ARE WORSE THAN WHAT I HAD EXPERIENCED SIX YEARS AGO.

IT IS DIFFICULT.

AND I HAVE FRIENDS WHO SPENT TIME THERE FOR YEARS, MORE THAN TWO AND HALF YEARS NOT KNOWING WHEN THEY COULD GET OUT.

THIS SITUATION IS HEARTBREAKING AND I HOPE WE CAN PUT MORE PRESSURE TO THE HONG KONG GOVERNMENT FOR THEM TO RELEASE A MASSEUSE POSSIBLE.>> IT WAS NOT SO LONG AGO, AS YOU SAID, THAT -- WHAT IS THE FUTURE FOR YOU AND YOU HAVE ASPIRATIONS TO RETURN TO SOME FORM OF GOVERNMENT LEADERSHIP AS A PUBLIC SERVANT?>> FOR ME, I AM A POLITICAL REFUGEE IN THE UK.

I AM CONTINUING MY INTERNATIONAL WORK BY SPREADING THE VOICE OF HONG KONG AND STANDING UP AGAINST THE CHINESE REGIME.

WE DO NEED A LOT OF INSPIRATION AND SPIRIT TO SUSTAIN IN THESE VERY DIFFICULT SITUATIONS.

AS WE KNOW, CHINA'S IS THE LARGEST AUTHORITARIAN REGIME IN THE WORLD.

FOR ME, I BELIEVE THAT JUSTICE WILL PREVAIL.

IT MAY TAKE DECADES FOR ME TO RETURN TO HONG KONG.

I MAY GO BACK WITH GRAY HAIR, BUT I WILL BE BACK.

I BELIEVE THAT WHAT I'M DOING IS PAVING MY WAY HOME.

AND WHEN I'M HOME, IT WILL BE A DEMOCRATIC AND FREE HONG KONG.>> WHAT IS YOUR MESSAGE TO YOUR SUPPORTERS, AND IS IT HARDER TO FIGHT WHAT YOU ARE PURSUING OVERSEAS?

BUT THE GOVERNMENT IS TRYING TO CUT ALL THE CONNECTIONS OF THE OTHERS TO ME.

THEY'RE TRYING TO SAY THAT I'M VERY DANGEROUS.

ANY SORT OF CONNECTION WITH ME WOULD LEAD TO POLITICAL CONSEQUENCES.

WE HAVE TO BE STRONG AND WE HAVE TO BE UNITED.

PLEASE DO NOT SELF CENSOR BECAUSE OF THAT.

PLEASE DO NOT BACK DOWN.

PLEASE BE AS BRAVE AS YOU CAN.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR TIME.

WE APPRECIATE IT.>> THANK YOU SO MUCH.>> THE HONG KONG SECURITY BUREAU SAID THIS WAS FAR FROM THE TRUTH STATING, WE OPPOSE AND CONDEMN THE UNREASONABLE SMEARING OF THE HONG KONG NATIONAL SECURITY LAW AND THE DEMONIZATION OF THE ACTIONS TAKEN BY THE NATIONAL SECURITY DEPARTMENT OF HONG KONG POLICE FORCE IN ACCORDANCE WITH THE LAW.

NO COUNTRY WILL WATCH WITH FOLDED ARMS AT ACTIVITIES THAT ENDANGER NATIONAL SECURITY.

THE ACTIONS ARE REASONABLE, RATIONAL, LEGAL, AND NECESSARY.

FUNDAMENTAL RIGHTS AND FREEDOMS SUCH AS THE FREEDOM OF SPEECH AND ASSEMBLY ARE PROTECTED UNDER THE BASIC LAW IN THE HONG KONG BILL OF RIGHTS.

HOWEVER, SUCH RIGHTS AND FREEDOMS ARE NOT ABSOLUTE AND CAN BE SUBJECT TO RESTRICTIONS PRESCRIBED BY LAW THAT ARE NECESSARY FOR, AMONGST OTHER REASONS, PROTECTION OF NATIONAL SECURITY OR PUBLIC ORDER.

THE OFFICE ALL-SOCON HIS CRITICISM OF ARTICLE 23 AHEAD OF LEGISLATIVE PUZZLES DESPICABLE AND IRRESPONSIBLE.>>> COLSON WHITEHEAD IS ONE OF THE ILLUSTRIOUS WRITERS TO WIN TWO PULLED SURPRISES.

FOR READERS WHO LOVE A GOOD CRIME PAPER, HIS NEW BOOK IS REFRESHINGLY NON-ILLUSTRIOUS.

IT IS A SEQUEL TO HARLEM SHUFFLE.

WHILE HIS HERO, RAY CARNEY, IS BACK IN THE GAME, THE RULES ARE CHANGING FASTER THAN HE CAN KEEP UP WITH.

IT JUMPS INTO 1970s HARLEM AS NEW YORK IS GOING BANKRUPT AND BURNING AT THE SAME TIME.

ALL HE REALLY WANTS HIS TICKETS FOR HIS TEENAGE DAUGHTER TO SEE THE JACKSON 5.

I SPOKE TO COLSON WHITEHEAD ABOUT SCHEMING CROOKS.

IT IS GREAT TO SEE YOU.

WELCOME BACK TO THE PROGRAM.

CONGRATULATIONS ON KIRK MANIFESTO.>> I'VE NEVER DONE A SERIES BEFORE AND I WANT TO KEEP GOING BACK TO THIS WORLD.

IT IS REWARDING.>> YOU USE HIS STORY LINE AND YOU BECAME ENAMORED WITH HIM AS A CHARACTER AS THE SEQUEL.

WHY DID YOU WANT TO BRING HIM BACK INTO THE WORLD?>> I KEPT COMING UP WITH MORE CAPERS AND ADVENTURES.

THERE ARE ROBBERIES AND HEISTS AND REVENGE SCHEMES IN MISSING PERSONS CASE AND I KEPT COMING UP WITH MORE AND MORE THINGS FOR HIM TO DO.

THE CAMPUS BECAME BIGGER, NOT JUST ABOUT ONE MAN BUT HIM AND 70s AND THE 80s AND THE CITY OVER THAT TIME.>> ONCE A CROOK, ALWAYS A CROOK?>> HE HAS A DARK SIDE.

HE WANTS TO BE AN UPSTANDING CITIZEN, BUT IN THE BACK OF HIS HEAD THERE'S A VOICE SAYING, LET'S DO SOME CRIME.>> LET'S COMPARE 1960s NEW YORK TO 1970s NEW YORK.

YOU DO SOMETHING HERE THAT YOU DID IN THE LAST BOOK.

THIS IS 1971, 1973, AND 1976.

WHY DID YOU PICK THOSE THREE YEARS?>> I WAS TRYING TO FIGURE OUT WHAT YEARS WOULD BE GOOD.

THE SUMMER OF 1977 BLACKOUT.

IT'S A GOOD OPPORTUNITY FOR A CROOK, BUT TOO OBVIOUS.

I TRIED TO PICK MY HITS MORE CAREFULLY.

1971 IS A BIG POLICE CORRUPTION SCANDAL.

MAYBE THAT'S A GOOD OPPORTUNITY TO EXPLORE.

1976, THE BICENTENNIAL, DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE, HOW FAR AWAY ARE WE THE IDEALS IN THE DECLARATION?

AND A GOOD OPPORTUNITY FOR SATIRE AND PUTTING CARNEY INTO THAT DISCUSSION.

>> IS IT FUN FOR YOU TO DO RESEARCH TO FIGURE OUT WHAT NEW YORK HARLEM WAS LIKE IN THESE VERY DIFFERENT ERAS?>> I WAS SEVEN YEARS OLD IN 1976, SO I DON'T REMEMBER ANY OF THAT.

FIGURING OUT WHAT PEOPLE WERE WEARING AND HOW MUCH WAS A HAM SANDWICH, FINDING PLACES IN HARLEM FOR ACTION, PLACES TO DUMP A BODY.

I DON'T USUALLY WALK AROUND THE CITY THINKING IT'S THIS A PLACE TO DUMP A BODY, BUT HAVE TO GET TO CHARACTER.

THE RESEARCH HAS BEEN FUN AND INTERESTING.>> WOULD YOU READ A PASSAGE FOR US?>> THIS IS THE OPENING.

FROM THEN ON WHENEVER HE HEARD THE SONG, HE THOUGHT OF THE DEATH OF MUNSON.

WAS THE JACKSON 5 WHO PUT RAY CARNEY BACK IN THE GAME FOLLOWING FOUR YEARS STRAIGHT AND NARROW.

THE STRAIGHT AND NARROW, IT DESCRIBED THE PHILOSOPHY AND TERRITORY, A NEIGHBORHOOD WITH BORDERS AND LOCAL CUSTOMS.

SOMETIMES WHEN HE CROSSED 7th AVENUE ON THE WAY TO WORK, HE MUMBLED THE WORDS TO HIMSELF LIKE A RUMMY TRYING TO WE'VE CROSSED SIDEWALK ON THE WAY HOME FROM A BAR.>> THE CRIME STORY KICKS OFF, AND THIS IS A FAMILY STORY AS WELL, AND WE LEARN MORE ABOUT HIS FAMILY.

HE IS A STRAIGHTLACED BUSINESSMAN.

AT TIMES HE CAN GO HOURS WITHOUT THINKING ABOUT COMMITTING A CRIME, AND YET, GIVEN EVERYTHING HE'S LIVING IN, IT IS THE JACKSON 5 THAT PULLS HIM BACK IN TO HIS OLD WORLD.

WHY?

AND HOW DOES IT RELATE TO HIS DAUGHTER?>> OFTENTIMES, A CRIMINAL WILL TRY TO GO THE STRAIGHT AND NARROW, SOMETHING POULSEN BACK IN.

SO I'M HAVING FUN WITH THAT.

IN THIS CASE, THE JACKSON 5 IS IN AN EARLY BURST OF PAIN.

IT IS APPROPRIATE FOR HIS TEENAGE DAUGHTER TO LOVE.

AND IT GETTING TICKETS MUSHROOMS INTO A BIGGER CATASTROPHE.

>> YOU WANT TO PLEASE YOUR FAMILY.>> THERE ARE DIFFERENT EXTREMES THAT DADS TAKE, AND THIS WAS HIS.

HE SAYS, HE HAD BEEN ON THE STRAIGHT AND NARROW FOR 4 YEARS, BUT SLIP ONCE, AND EVERYBODY IS GLAD TO HELP YOU SLIP HARD.

TALK ABOUT WHAT THAT MEANS.

THE CROOKED STAYS CROOKED.

>> THAT IS WHAT HE THINKS.

IS IT TRUE?

CAN YOU REFORM?

PART OF THE FUN OF THESE BOOKS IS THE PSYCHOLOGY.

HE WANTS TO BE AN UPSTANDING BUSINESSMAN THAT HAS A DARK SIDE.

HE IS REJECTING HIS FILE ITSELF, HIS CRIMINAL SELF, AND EMBRACING IT, ACKNOWLEDGING IT, IGNORING IT.

I'M EXAGGERATING THE WAY WE ALL SURVIVED AND HOPEFULLY NARRATING IT IN A WAY THAT IS INTERESTING.>> WHAT ROLE DOES HIS WIFE ELIZABETH PLAY IN TERMS THIS PAST, AND DOES SHE KNOW ABOUT HIS VENTURE BACK?>> HE CAME FROM A BROKEN HOME.

PART OF WHAT HE WANTED WAS A STABLE FAMILY LIFE.

HE IS WORKING ON HIS MARRIAGE AND HIS FAMILY.

SHE SAVED HIM, ANYWAY.

HE HAS A SECRET LIFE.

CAN HE BE STRAIGHT WITH HER?

I EXAMINE THAT HOW MUCH DOES ELIZABETH KNOW, AND SO I ADDRESS THAT.

I HAD TO ADDRESS THAT.

IT WAS FUNNY BECAUSE THIS SPRING MY SISTER CAME ACROSS A STORY ABOUT OUR GRANDFATHER.

PERHAPS HE HAD RUN MOONSHINE FOR THE MOB FROM CANADA INTO NEW YORK.

SO I ASKED MY MOTHER AND MY MOM SAID, I DON'T KNOW WHERE THAT STORY CAME FROM.

BUT IN THE 1930s EVERYBODY DID SOMETHING.

EVEN IF ELIZABETH DOES NOT KNOW, SHE UNDERSTANDS THAT EVERYBODY IS UP TO SOMETHING.>> HE APPRECIATES HOW MUCH SHE TOLERATES AND REWARDS HER FOR BRINGING HER BACK TO LIFE THAT SHE KNEW PRIOR TO HIM ON STRIVER ROW.

YOU TALK ABOUT THIS PART OF HARLEM THAT SHE WAS VERY FAMILIAR WITH, AND HE BRINGS HER BACK BECAUSE IT WAS A SIGN OF STATUS THAT HE'S WORKED HARD ENOUGH TO GET HER BACK TO WHERE SHE STARTED.

AND HE WAS JUDGED BY HER FAMILY.>> HER FAMILY IS UPPERCRUST BLACK FOLKS, PART OF A PROFESSIONAL CLASS IN HARLEM.

HE IS FROM THE WRONG SIDE OF THE TRACKS.

RACE, CLASS, MONEY.

I'M TRYING TO JUGGLE ALL THESE DIFFERENT THEMES.

THEY WORK UPON US IN DIFFERENT WAYS.

AND CARNEY IN PARTICULAR BECAUSE OF HIS PSYCHOLOGICAL MAKEUP .

>> THE PHRASE CROOK MANIFESTO COMES FROM A LIFELONG CRIMINAL IN THIS BOOK CULPEPPER.

WHO IS PEPPER?>> PEPPER IS A SEASONED CRIMINAL WHO TEACHES HIM SOME OF THE WAYS OF BEING A CROOK.

HE'S A GREAT FOIL.

HE'S KIND OF A SOCIOPATH AND ENDS UP BEING A MEMBER OF CARNEY'S FAMILY.

HE GETS HIS OWN ADVENTURE, HIS STORY, AND CARNEY IS IN THE BACKGROUND FOR A FEW PAGES.

THEN WE GET TO SEE HIM IN HIS WORLD THROUGH PEPPERS EYES.>> WHY A TRILOGY?>> THE RULE OF THREE.

I KEPT COMING UP WITH MORE STORIES.

IF YOU DO TWO BOOKS, YOU MAY AS WELL DO THREE.

THE BIG CANVAS WAS VERY APPEALING OF 30 YEARS IN SOMEBODY'S LIFE.

THERE ARE TEENAGERS AND IN THE THIRD BOOK THEY WILL BE OUT OF THE HOUSE.

HE'S IN HIS EARLY 30s, THE MAIN CHARACTER, AND IN HIS 40s AND 50s.

AND THE CITY IS CHANGING AS WELL.

CAPTURING ALL THOSE DIFFERENT CHANGES HAS BEEN A GREAT CHALLENGE BUT INSPIRING TO ME.

>> THE CITY IS CHANGING, HARLEM IS CHANGING, BUT YOU SAY IT WAS THE SAME PLACE IT HAS ALWAYS BEEN.

IT IS THE PEOPLE WHO COME IN WHO COME AND GO.>> I THINK THE CITY IS THE SAME.

IF YOU READ 19TH-CENTURY WRITERS WRITING ABOUT THE CITY, IT IS RECOGNIZABLE TO US NOW.

THERE IS A WAY THAT THE CITY SHAPES US, WHETHER IT IS 1920 OR 1960 OR 2013.

STOREFRONTS CHANGE, 125th STREET IN HARLEM CHANGES -- >> THE IMMIGRANTS CHANGE.>> EVEN THAT, THE FIRST WAVE OF PEOPLE WHO CAME TO HARLEM WERE IRISH ITALIAN, JEWISH, WHITE EUROPEANS.

BLACKS FROM THE SOUTH CAME UP.

AND NOW, 120 YEARS LATER, IT IS GENTRIFIED, AND THE GREAT GREAT GRANDKIDS ARE NOW COMING FOR CHEAP RENT AND COOL RESTAURANTS.

THE CYCLE CONTINUES.

THAT CONSTANT CHANGE, THE CHURN OF PEOPLE TO THE CITY IS LOVELY TO OBSERVE AND WRITE ABOUT.>> ANOTHER GHOST FROM THE 1970s IS VIETNAM.

AT ONE POINT HIS DAUGHTER SAYS, SOMEBODY HAS TO TO SAY THIS.

VIETNAM AND THE .

IT IS THE SAME.

DO YOU SEE LINKS?>> THAT IS THE THE OPPRESSION AND IMPERIALISM.

WIOR BLACK AMERICANS FIGHTING ASIANS AND I'M TRYING TO CAPTURE THE ENERGY OF THE TIME.

IN THE EARLY 1970s, THE BLACK PANTHER PARTY IS SPLITTING.

AND REVOLUTIONARIES.

IT'S A GREAT OPPORTUNITY TO EXPLORE THESE IDEAS ABOUT WHAT IT IS TO BE A BLACK AMERICAN -- NATIONAL INTERESTS DON'T MATCH UP WITH WHAT WE WANT AS HUMAN BEINGS.>> YOU SEEM BULLISH ABOUT NEW YORK.

IN ONE PASSAGE THAT STOOD OUT WAS THE CITY WAS BEING TESTED.

IT WAS EMERGING ON THE OTHER SIDE OF A NEWER STRONGER VERSION, BUT EVERYBODY FORGOT THIS FROM TIME TO TIME.

THAT IS AN OPTIMISTIC TAKE.

IT REMINDS US ABOUT WHAT LIFE POST-COVID COULD BE WHEN WE WERE WORRIED.>> I WAS WRITING THIS DURING THE PANDEMIC.

THE STREETS WERE EMPTY.

IT WAS SUCH A DESTROYED LANDSCAPE.

IN THE EARLY'S 1970s THE CITY WAS IN THE FISCAL CRISIS.

AT THE SAME TIME IT WAS THE BIRTH OF PUNK AND DISCO AND HIP- HOP AND ALL THAT STUFF CAME OUT OF THIS CALAMITY IN THE CITY.

I FELT ENERGIZED THINKING ABOUT THAT.

THERE ARE ARTISTS AND NON- ARTISTS WHO ARE BRINGING THE CITY BACK AFTER A TERRORIST ATTACK OR A FISCAL CRISIS.

OR A PANDEMIC.>> YOUR ALSO KNOWN FOR BOOKS ON HISTORY.

I'M CURIOUS TO GET YOUR TAKE ON WHAT WE ARE SEEING TRANSPIRE IN THE COUNTRY NOW WITH AN IDEA THAT MAYBE SOME HISTORY IS NOT WORTH TELLING ARE WORTH READING ABOUT ORTS NOT SOMETHING THAT CHILDREN SHOULD HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY TO READ.

AS AN HISTORIAN, HOW DOES THAT MAKE YOU FEEL AND DOES IT MAKE YOU WORRY ABOUT WHAT IT DOES TO YOUR INDUSTRY AND WHAT IT DOES TO CHILDREN AND FUTURE GENERATIONS?

BUT IT IS LUDICROUS WHEN YOU CANNOT MENTION SLAVERY.

PULLING BACK, GET THESE REACTIONARY MOMENTS.

THE PC MOB IS TAKING OVER THE COMMUNIST ARE TAKING OVER AND THE WOKE MOB IS TAKING OVER.

THERE IS BACKLASH TO ANY KIND OF PROGRESSIVE ADVANCEMENT.

I HAVE TO BELIEVE THAT ART WINS IN THE END AND IF YOU ARE WRITING A POEM, PAINTING OR PAINTING OR WRITING A NOVEL, YOU HAVE TO BELIEVE IF YOU DO IT WELL ENOUGH, IT WILL FIND ITS PLACE IN THE WORLD.

ALL OF THAT -- I HAVE FAITH IN ART.

NOT SO MUCH IN PEOPLE.>> DO YOU THINK THIS WILL PASS?>> IT WILL PASS.

WRITERS HAVE NOTHING TO DO BUT TO WRITE TO GET IT OFF THEIR CHESTS.

THERE WILL ALWAYS BE PEOPLE READING.>> AND NOW YOU ARE DOING THE THIRD BOOK?

WHAT CAN WE EXPECT WITHOUT REVEALING TOO MUCH?>> IT IS THE 1980s.

NEW YORK CITY IS COMING OUT OF A FISCAL CRISIS.

WALL STREET IS BOOMING, AND IN THE LATE 1980s WE SEE THE WALL STREET CRASH.

THE AIDS CRISIS, THE RISE OF CRACK.

THERE IS ANOTHER PHASE OF BEING TESTED, AND CARNEY IS BEING TESTED AS WELL.

TRACKING MY TACKINESS'S MY PROTAGONISTS, I'VE NEVER DONE THIS BEFORE AND IF I STEP BACK, TOGETHER IT IS 1100 PAGES OF A MAN AND THE CITY.>> CONGRATULATIONS ON THE BOOK.

YOU GET A SENSE OF HOW POPULAR AND WELL PRAISED THIS BOOK IS.

AND YOU DRESSED FOR THE OCCASION AS WELL.

IT IS GREAT TO SEE YOU.

>>> AFTER THE SUPREME COURT RULING STRIKING DOWN THE STUDENT DEBT RELIEF PROGRAM, LOAN INTERESTS RESUME ON SEPTEMBER 1st OF 323 AND PAYMENTS WILL BE DUE IN OCTOBER.

THE CONSUMER FINANCIAL PROTECTION BUREAU ESTIMATES ONE IN FIVE BORROWERS WILL STRUGGLE TO MAKE PAYMENTS.

THERE IS A PODCAST AND JOINS MICHEL MARTIN TO DISCUSS HOW PEOPLE WILL BE IMPACTED BY THESE CHANGES.

THIS IS PART OF THE ONGOING INITIATIVE ABOUT POVERTY, JOBS, AND ECONOMIC OPPORTUNITY IN AMERICA CALLED CHASING THE DREAM.>> THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME TODAY.>> ARE KIND OF A FINANCIAL ADVICE EXPERT AND AUTHOR.

YOU HAVE WRITTEN BOOKS AND YOU WRITE A COLUMN.

WE CALLED YOU BECAUSE YOU HAVE A NETWORK OF PEOPLE WHO ARE AFFECTED BY THE STUDENT LOAN PHENOMENON OR CRISIS, WHATEVER YOU WANT TO CALL IT.

STUDENT LOAN INTEREST WILL RESUME ON SEPTEMBER 1st, PAYMENTS WILL BE DUE IN OCTOBER.

THAT IS ACCORDING TO THE DEPARTMENT OF EDUCATION.

ARE YOU HEARING FROM BORROWERS AND WHAT ARE THEY TELLING YOU?>> A LOT OF PEOPLE ARE FRUSTRATED, AND I CAN UNDERSTAND WHERE THEY'RE COMING FROM THEIR EXPECTATIONS HAVE BEEN MISMANAGED.

THERE WAS SO MUCH EXPECTATION WHEN IT CAME TO LOANS BEING FORGIVEN, AND WHEN THE SUPREME COURT STRUCK IT DOWN, PEOPLE FEEL LEFT OUT.

IT KIND OF FEELS LIKE SOMEBODY'S TELLING YOU IN A COUPLE OF WEEKS YOU WILL HAVE AN AMAZING BIRTHDAY PARTY AND WE WILL HAVE CAKE AND ALL YOUR FRIENDS WILL BE THERE, AND THE NEWS CHANGES AND THEN, ACTUALLY, YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE A BIRTHDAY PARTY AND YOU HAVE TO EAT A TOMATO, AND I HOPE YOU HAVE A GREAT TIME.

I WANT TO ILLUSTRATE THAT PEOPLE HAD AN IDEA IN THEIR MIND AND BELIEVES THAT STUDENT LOANS WOULD BE FORGIVEN AND NOW THAT THEY HAVE TO RESUME PAYMENTS, THEY FEEL FRUSTRATED.

I WILL SAY, THERE ARE PEOPLE THAT HAVE BEEN CRITICAL ALL ALONG AND THOUGHT THE GOVERNMENT IS NOT GOING TO HELP ME, AND I FEEL LIKE THOSE FOLKS FEEL A LOT MORE EMOTIONALLY PREPARED TO START PAYING AGAIN.>> PEOPLE KNEW THERE WAS A POLICY PUSH TO FORGIVE THESE, THE PEOPLE HAVE NOT BEEN PAYING THEM.

WHAT DIFFERENCE DO YOU THINK THIS HAS MADE TO THE PEOPLE YOU ARE IN TOUCH WITH AND TO THE PEOPLE WHOSE FINANCIAL SITUATIONS YOU ARE ACQUAINTED WITH?>> IF INFLATION HAD NOT BEEN GROWING AT THE RATE THAT IT WAS, I THINK FOLKS WOULD NOT FEEL AS SENSITIVE TO RESUMING THEIR PAYMENTS.

LET'S SAY, FOR EXAMPLE, SOMEBODY'S PAYMENT IS $1000 A MONTH FOR THE LAST THREE YEARS AND THEY WERE NOT USING THAT $1000.

IN A PERFECT WORLD, THEY WERE TAKING THAT MONEY AND PUTTING IT INTO A SAVINGS ACCOUNT AND MAYBE EVEN INVESTING IT OR CONTINUING TO MAKE LOAN PAYMENTS.

WHAT I HAVE LEARNED IS THAT EVEN THOUGH WE KNOW IT IS GOOD FOR US AND THE THINGS THAT WE SHOULD BE DOING FROM A PERSONAL- FINANCE PERSPECTIVE, SOMETIMES WE ACT OUTSIDE OF OUR BEST INTERESTS, BUT SOMETIMES THINGS OUTSIDE OF OUR CONTROL IMPACT WHAT WE ARE ABLE TO DO WITH HER MONEY.

WE ARE SEEING THAT HAPPEN WITH INFLATION.

A LOT OF PEOPLE ARE FEELING THE PINCH AND HAVING TO SPEND MORE IN AREAS THEY DID NOT PREDICT OVER THE LAST THREE YEARS LIKE FOOD, ESPECIALLY.

THAT IS WHERE PEOPLE'S MONEY IS GOING.

TO TAKE AWAY FROM WHERE THEY HAVE BEEN ABLE TO PUT THEIR MONEY, IT FEELS LIKE EVERYBODY'S FEELING THIS.>> THIS WAS ONE OF PRESIDENT BIDEN'S KEY CAMPAIGN PROMISES.

HE WAS NOT THE ONLY ONE.

HE PUT FORTH THIS PROPOSAL.

THE SUPREME COURT BLOCKED THE DEAL.

OUR PEOPLE ANXIOUS OR ANGRY, AND IF THEY ARE ANGRY, WHO ARE THEY ANGRY AT?>> PEOPLE ARE UPSET WITH THE SUPREME COURT MOST CERTAINLY.

PEOPLE ARE UPSET IN GENERAL THAT THE EXPECTATIONS FOR THEIR LIVES FOR MISMANAGED.

I AM A MILLENIAL AND I GREW UP IN THE 1990s WHEN THE ECONOMY FELT STRONG.

WE HAD A DIFFERENT ATTITUDE ABOUT HOW WE CAN SUIT.

WE HAD THE IDEA THAT HOME PRICES WILL RISE, INCOMES WILL RISE.

YOU WILL GO TO COLLEGE AND YOU WILL BE BETTER OFF THAN YOUR PARENTS.

THAT WAS TOLD TO US.

FOR A LOT OF MY CLIENTS AND PEOPLE THAT I WORK WITH AND SPEAK TO, THEY INTERNALIZED THAT BELIEF.

THEY FELT THE PRESSURE TO TAKE OUT LOANS TO GO TO SCHOOL BECAUSE WE WERE TOLD IT WAS THE ONLY WAY TO GET AHEAD AND THE ONLY WAY TO BE BETTER OFF.

AND TO ARRIVE HERE WHERE TUITION INFLATION UTTERLY OUT OF CONTROL, WE JUST HAVE NOT INCREASED.

THERE ARE A LOT OF DIFFERENT PLACES WE CAN PLACE ANGER, AND THAT IS WHAT I'M SEEING.>> THE PARTISAN ASPECT OF THIS, THE FACT IS SEVERAL REPUBLICAN-LED STATES AND CONSERVATIVE GROUPS ARE THE ONES WHO FILED LEGAL CHALLENGES AGAINST LOAN FORGIVENESS PROGRAM.

IT'S NOT TO SAY THAT THEY'RE NOT CRITICS IN OTHER SECTORS, BUT THEY ARE THE ONES THAT ADVANCE THE OPPOSITION AND TOOK LEGAL ACTION.

I'M WONDERING IF THE PARTISAN ASPECT IS VISIBLE?>> ABSOLUTELY.

WE ARE IN A TIME WHERE AMERICA IS SO DIVIDED.

IT IS TRULY HEARTBREAKING TO SEE.

AND I KNOW I AM HERE SPEAKING AS A MEDIA ON THE MEDIA, THAT WE ARE LIVING IN A TIME WHERE GETTING PEOPLE UPSET IS PROFITABLE, SO BEING ABLE TO SPIN THIS STORY, MAKING OVERLY POLITICAL AND HIGHLIGHTING THE DIVISION, A GETS PEOPLE UPSET.

IT GETS PEOPLE ENGAGED, WHICH MEANS CLICKING AND READING, AND I THINK WE CANNOT DISCOUNT THAT POWER OF THE ECONOMY, THE OUTRAGE, AND ALL THESE ISSUES THAT SHOULD BE HUMAN ISSUES.

WHEN IT COMES TO BURDENING YOUNG PEOPLE WITH DEBT, IT IS BAD FOR THE ECONOMY.

MY PEERS ARE DECIDING NOT TO HAVE CHILDREN.

THEY CANNOT AFFORD TO BUY HOMES.

A LARGE SHARE OF INCOME IS GOING TO STUDENT LOANS, AND AT THE END OF THE DAY, THAT IS NOT GOOD FOR THE ECONOMY.

AND TAKING THAT TO ANOTHER LAYER, WHEN EDUCATION IS NOT ACCESSIBLE AND AFFORDABLE, PUTS AMERICA AT A DISADVANTAGE.

IF WE CANNOT EDUCATE OUR CITIZENS, HOW WILL WE BE COMPETITIVE?

>> DO YOU THINK THE OPPOSITION TO THIS IS POLITICAL OR PARTISAN, AS IN THIS ADVANTAGE IS ONE PARTY OVER THE OTHER, OR IS IT IDEOLOGICAL BECAUSE WHAT WE ARE HEARING FROM SOME PEOPLE IS THEY FEEL LIKE -- SOME PEOPLE SAY IT IS WRONG.

PEOPLE TOOK OUT THESE LOANS, THEY KNEW WHAT THE TERMS WERE.

IF THEY DID NOT WANT TO PAY THE MONEY BACK, THEY SHOULD NOT HAVE TAKEN OUT THE LOAN.

>> I THINK IT IS BOTH.

SOME PEOPLE LOOK AT THIS AS AN ENTIRELY POLITICAL ISSUE.

IT IS AN ISSUE OF THESE PEOPLE ARE GETTING SOMETHING THEY DO NOT DESERVE.

AND I THINK OTHER PEOPLE LOOK AT IT FROM A MORE PURITANICAL PERSPECTIVE ANYMORE PERSPECTIVE THAT IF YOU BORROWED MONEY, YOU OUGHT TO PAY IT BACK.

AND WHY MOSTLY BELIEF THAT IS THE CASE, YOU HAVE TO LOOK AT THE REALITIES.

STUDENTS WERE 18 YEARS OLD WHEN THEY WERE OFFERED THESE LOANS.

THE RATE OF INFLATION WHEN IT COMES TO TUITION IS ASTRONOMICAL.

THERE ARE FEW THINGS THAT HAVE RISEN IN PRICE THE WAY THAT TUITION HAS.

AND THAT IS THE LARGER QUESTION WE HAVE TO ASK.

HAS EDUCATION IMPROVED BY 300%?

OR HAVE SALARIES IMPROVED BY THAT MUCH?

SO IT IS A BIG BALL OF WAX.

I DEFINITELY THINK A LOT OF PEOPLE -- A LOT OF PEOPLE SEE IT AS A POLITICAL ISSUE AND A LOT OF PEOPLE SEE IT AS A MORAL ISSUE.>> LET'S TALK ABOUT THE THINGS THAT YOU RAISE AND ISOLATE THEM.

LET'S TALK ABOUT THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION.

THEY'VE ANNOUNCED A PLAN TO FORGIVE $39 BILLION FOR ABOUT 800,000 BORROWERS.

IT IS NOT AS EXPENSIVE AS HIS INITIAL PROPOSAL, BUT IT DOES HELP PEOPLE.

800,000 PEOPLE IS NOT LIKE ZERO.

WHO IS COVERED UNDER THIS, AND ARE PEOPLE WHERE THIS IS A POSSIBILITY?>> FOR THE PEOPLE WHO ARE GETTING BLANKET FORGIVENESS, IT WILL BE ABOUT 804,000.

THIS IS A CORRECTION IN ADMINISTRATIVE ERRORS AND BUREAUCRATIC ERRORS.

THE PEOPLE WHO ARE QUALIFIED, YOU HAVE TO HAVE MADE 20 YEARS OF PAYMENTS, WHICH IS A LOT.

IF YOU ARE NOWHERE NEAR THERE, YOU'RE NOT IN THIS 804,000.

THERE ARE STATISTICS FLOATING AROUND FOR MANY YEARS AND IT SAID THAT 98% OR SO OF THOSE WHO APPLIED FOR LOAN FORGIVENESS HAVE BEEN DENIED.

SO ONLY 2% OF PEOPLE OVER THE YEARS WHO HAVE APPLIED FOR FORGIVENESS HAVE BEEN GRANTED FORGIVENESS.

THIS IS A BIG REASON IS BECAUSE OF ADMINISTRATIVE AND BUREAUCRATIC ISSUES.

THE LENDERS, THEY ARE POOR RECORD-KEEPING OR BORROWERS WERE PUT IN THIS GOTCHA SITUATION WHERE THEY SHOULD'VE BEEN FOLLOWING THESE ADMINISTRATIVE TASKS.

AND IF YOU HAVE PROOF OF THAT, THEN YOUR LOAN WILL BE FORGIVEN.

THIS IS FRANKLY A LONG TIME COMING FOR THESE PEOPLE.

PEOPLE ARE STARTING TO BE NOTIFIED BY EMAIL.

I HAVE SPENT SOME TIME LOOKING ON REDDIT AND READING PEOPLE'S RESPONSES.

THEY ARE SAYING, I AM ONE OF THE 800,000.

THIS IS A LIFE-CHANGING AMOUNT OF MONEY.

IT HAS BEEN HEARTWARMING FOR ME TO SEE PEOPLE HAVING AN ENTIRELY DIFFERENT PERSPECTIVE ON STUDENT LOANS.

THEY ARE FEELING JOY AND GRATITUDE.

I THINK WE SHOULD TAKE THAT MOMENT TO APPRECIATE THAT THIS IS FINALLY HAPPENING.>> IS THERE AN ARGUMENT THAT THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION SHOULD'VE TAKEN THIS APPROACH TO BEGIN WITH INSTEAD OF SWINGING AT THE FENCE FOR SOMETHING THAT WAS DESTINED TO BE THAT CONTROVERSIAL?>> I'M TRYING TO THINK.

I'M NOT NECESSARILY THE POLITICAL EXPERT, SO I WOULD NOT KNOW IN TERMS OF WHAT THE RIGHT PLAY WAS AND HOW THOSE CHIPS WOULD LAND.

I THINK PEOPLE'S EXPECTATIONS WERE MISMANAGED.

AND THIS PROGRAM HAS BEEN -- IT WAS INTRODUCED EARLIER THIS YEAR AND NOW IS TAKING CENTER STAGE BECAUSE STUDENT LOAN FORGIVENESS WAS STRUCK DOWN BY THE SUPREME COURT.

AND THIS IS AN OPPORTUNITY TO HIGHLIGHT THIS THING THAT WAS ALREADY BEING PUSHED.>> TO HAVE ADVICE FOR PEOPLE WHO WILL NOT QUALIFY FOR THIS PLAN, AND ESPECIALLY FOR PEOPLE WHO FOLLOW YOU AND WHO FEEL THE DESPAIR YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT?>> MY PRACTICAL'S PERSPECTIVE, MAKE SURE YOU GATHER ALL OF YOUR INFORMATION AND YOU KNOW WHO YOUR STUDENT LOAN SERVICER IS.

NAVIA AND WAS A BIG PLAYER AND ALL THOSE PEOPLE, THEY ARE SOMEWHERE ELSE.

YOU HAVE TO FIGURE OUT WHO YOUR LOAN SERVICER IS.

MAKE SURE THEY HAVE YOUR EMAIL AND YOUR PHONE NUMBER.

YOU CAN FIND YOUR ACCOUNT AND YOU CAN GO TO YOUR LOAN SERVICES SECTION AND SEE WHO YOUR SERVICER IS.

UNFORTUNATELY, THE OTHER THING YOU CAN DO, PRACTICE PAYING YOUR PAYMENT NOW.

START TAKING WHAT YOU EXPECT YOUR PAYMENT TO BE AND PUT IT INTO A SAVINGS ACCOUNT AND DO IT OVER THE NEXT FEW MONTHS AND LIVE WITH THAT AND SEE HOW YOUR FINANCES ARE IMPACTED.

AND IF YOU FEEL THAT STRUGGLE AND YOU CANNOT MAKE ENDS MEET, THAT IS A SIGN THAT YOU NEED TO REACH OUT AND SEE WHAT PLANS ARE AVAILABLE, IN TERMS OF A REPAYMENT PLAN.

I HAVE SOME IMPRACTICAL ADVICE.

>> WHAT IS THAT?

PLAY POWERBALL?

THAT'S NOT A GOOD PLAN.>> MY IMPRACTICAL ADVICE IS WE ARE LIVING IN AN UNCERTAIN TIME.

THERE IS SO MUCH WE CANNOT PREDICT AND THERE'S A LOT OUTSIDE OF OUR CONTROL.

WHEN YOU'RE FEELING OVERWHELMED BY FINANCES, AND THIS WILL SOUND SILLY, BUT TAKE A DEEP BREATH, AND FIND WAYS THAT YOU FEEL SAFE.

FIND THE WAY THAT YOU FEEL SECURE.

WE ARE CHRONICALLY STRESSED LIKE THAT, WHEN YOU MAKE FINANCIAL DECISIONS, BIG OR SMALL, IN THAT STATE, YOU MAKE THEM FROM A PLACE OF STRESS AND ANXIETY AND NOT FROM A PLACE OF COGNITION.

WHEN THAT HAPPENS, YOU MAKE BAD FINANCIAL DECISIONS, AND IT'S A VICIOUS CYCLE.>> WHY DO YOU CALL THE IMPRACTICAL ADVICE?

ONE POINT YOU HAVE BEEN MAKING IS THAT YOUR EMOTIONS TO AFFECT YOUR FINANCIAL DECISIONS.>> MY WHOLE CAREER I'VE BEEN WORKING IN FINANCIAL SERVICES.

MY FIRST JOB WAS A DEBT COLLECTOR FOR A BANK.

I UNDERSTAND THE KIND OF OBJECTIONS PEOPLE WILL HAVE WHEN IT COMES TO MY IDEAS AND MY ADVICE WITH MONEY.

I WOULD SAY UNTIL KIND OF RECENTLY, PEOPLE DID NOT WANT TO ADMIT OR DID NOT SEE THE LINK BETWEEN OUR EMOTIONS AND OUR FINANCIAL SITUATION AND THAT THEY IMPACT ONE ANOTHER.

ESPECIALLY OTHER PERSONAL FINANCE EXPERTS.

IT IS EASY TO SELL THE IDEA THAT IF YOU DO THESE THINGS AND FOLLOW THESE STEPS, YOU WILL BE OKAY.

WHAT I HAVE HAD TO CONFRONT WITH MY OWN PERSONAL FINANCE JOURNEY AND SEEING MY PEERS AND MY FRIENDS AND MY COMMUNITIES STRUGGLE WITH FINANCES IS THAT OFTENTIMES OUR EMOTIONS GET IN THE WAY.

WHEN PEOPLE LOOK LIKE THEY ARE ACTING OUTSIDE OF THEIR BEST INTERESTS, OFTENTIMES THERE IS TRAUMA.

THERE IS STRESS AND ANXIETY THAT HAS BEEN CHRONIC AND IT NEEDS TO BE ADDRESSED SO THAT IN THE MOMENTS WE HAVE OUR AGENCY, WE ARE DOING THE BEST WE CAN WITH THAT LITTLE WINDOW.

>> THE CONSUMER FINANCIAL PROTECTION BUREAU ESTIMATES ONE IN FIVE BORROWERS WILL STRUGGLE TO MAKE PAYMENTS ONCE THIS PAUSE ENDS.

WHAT DOES IT SAY TO YOU ABOUT THE COST OF COLLEGE EDUCATION OR HOW WE VIEW COLLEGE EDUCATION THAT SO MANY PEOPLE ARE IN THAT SITUATION?

DOES IT SAY SOMETHING WE NEED TO THINK ABOUT MORE BROADLY?>> ABSOLUTELY.

AMERICA IS WONDERFUL FOR A LOT OF REASONS.

I AM GRATEFUL THAT I HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY TO BUILD A LIFE IN THIS COUNTRY.

ONE OF THE BIG DOWNSIDES IS THAT EVERYONE IS ALWAYS TRYING TO MAKE A >> OFF OF EVERYONE.

IT PERMEATES OUR CULTURE.

OUR CULTURE SATURATED IN THAT IDEA.

AND WE SEE WITH STUDENT LOANS.

IT DOESN'T MAKE SENSE TO BE PROFITING OFF OF CITIZENS IN THAT WAY.

IF WE HELP THEM, IF WE EDUCATE THEM, WE ARM THEM WITH SKILLS, WITH KNOWLEDGE, WITH TRAITS, SO THEY CAN GO TO THE MARKETPLACE, ACTUALLY ADD VALUE, CREATE COMPANIES, THE HEALTHY, EFFECTIVE WORKERS, THAT WILL BE BETTER FOR THE ECONOMY OVERALL.

I THINK THE WAY WE ARE DOING THINGS NOW IS INCREDIBLY SHORTSIGHTED.

IS HOW CAN WE MAKE A PROFIT OFF OF ANYONE AT ANY AGE, AND WE ARE THINKING ABOUT INVESTING IN CITIZENS IN THE LONG RUN.>> THANK YOU FOR TALKING WITH US.>>> FINALLY, WE REMEMBERED JANE BIRKIN.

SHE PASSED AWAY EARLIER THIS WEEK AT THE AGE OF 76.

SHE WAS A HOUSEHOLD NAME THANKS TO HER RELATIONSHIP WITH [ INDISCERNIBLE ].

THIS SONG WAS SO CONTROVERSIAL IT WAS BANNED IN SEVERAL COUNTRIES.

SHE BECAME A STAR IN HER OWN RIGHT THROUGH ACTING AND FASHION.

THAT IS THE NAMESAKE FOR THE WORLD'S MOST ICONIC HAND BACK.

HER LEGACY WILL ALWAYS LIVE ON.

SHE TOLD THE STORY OF HOW IT CAME TO BE WHEN THEY SPOKE IN 2020.>> I WAS SITTING NEXT TO A MAN ON AIRPLANE.

I WAS WRITING IN MY DIARY AND IT FELL TO THE GROUND.

AND HE SAID, YOU SHOULD HAVE A DIARY WITH A POCKET ON THE INSIDE TO KEEP ALL OF YOUR PHOTOGRAPHS AND I SAID, WHAT CAN YOU DO.

HE SAID, GIVE ME YOUR DIARY AND I WILL GET IT DONE.

AND I SAID WHY DON'T YOU MAKE A BAG THAT YOU CAN LEAVE OPENED AND HALF THE SIZE OF MY SUITCASE.

BECAUSE GIRLS LIKE TO HAVE A THING ON THE END OF THE ARM TO PUT THINGS IN.

AND HE SAID, DRAW IT FOR ME.

AND SO I DREW IT ON ONE OF THOSE SICK BAGS IN THE AIRPLANE.

AND WHEN IT CAME TO COMING OVER AND PAYING FOR THE BAG, HE SAID, IT IS A GIFT.

HE SAID, WE THINK IT IS SO GREAT THAT WE WOULD LIKE TO GIVE IT YOUR NAME AND PUT IT OUT AS A HANDBAG.

HE SAID WE'VE ONLY HAD THE KELLY BAG AND I'M GRATEFUL.

IT WAS FUNNY TO COME TO NEW YORK AND I SAID, NOW THE BAG IS GOING TO SING.

NOT ONLY -- BUT ONLY TALK ABOUT THE BAG.>> THAT IS IT FOR OUR PROGRAM.

IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT IS COMING UP, SIGN UP FOR NEWSLETTER.

THANK YOU FOR WATCHING.

JOIN US AGAIN TOMORROW NIGHT.