Funding for To the Contrary provided by the E .Rhodes and Leona B. Carpenter Foundation, the Park Foundation and the Charles A. Frueauff Foundation.

I was assaulted by one of my colleagues.

I pulled my manager aside and told him what happened, and he said, I'm not getting rid of this guy because this guy got him access to all the best golf courses in the world ♪♪ Hello, I'm Bonnie Erbe' Welcome to To the Contrary, a discussion of news and social trends from diverse perspectives.

This week, there's no disagreement about the fact that Wall Street has a woman problem.

But just how bad is it?

Today we speak with a woman who wrote a scathing book about her experiences in the investment banking business in New York.

It's called Bully Market.

My story about money and misogyny at Goldman Sachs.

Our women's thought leader is Jamie Fiore Higgins.

Jamie, welcome to the program.

Thank you for having me.

So you have some pretty nasty stories and pretty incredibly stories of incredibly immature acts by men on Wall Street who you would think would be a little bit older than 12 or 13.

They certainly don't act it in your book.

Yeah.

You'd be surprised at a place where it's so competitive.

They say it's harder to get a job at Goldman Sachs and to get into Harvard.

But yet a lot of the behavior reminds me of the stories.

My two 13 year old daughters bring home from middle school.

So a lot of that kind of I call it the white noise of Wall Street, that kind of constant misogyny and gender discrimination started on my first few days when the gentleman on the desk I worked with built a spreadsheet graphing all the new hire women based on their physical attributes, their breast size, the length of their legs.

So although in the all the marketing materials, they made it sound like it was going to be this very professional place.

I learned very quickly it was very much like a locker room.

Now you describe yourself in the book as an ingenue from Bryn Mawr, a prestigious women's school who had no idea what she was getting herself into.

So I went to a women's college from our college outside of Philadelphia.

You can imagine a women's college.

It's a world where, you know, you're told you can be anything.

You can go anywhere.

When I graduated, I didn't want to go into Wall Street.

I actually wanted to become a social worker.

I had had a childhood with a lot of physical health issues and really benefited from supportive social workers that I wanted to pay that forward.

But my parents had some other plans.

They were children of immigrants and had really gotten themselves out of the poverty they were born into into the middle class.

And they really expected me and my siblings to kind of continue that.

Every generation must do better is something my mom always told me.

So the directive was Bryn Mawr was expensive.

You need to get the best paying job possible.

And in 1998, that was Wall Street.

It's still I mean, even in a down market, it's still Wall Street overall, right?

I would say so.

I mean, there's less in tech has certainly had its its boom.

Actually, there was a tech boom pretty soon after I started Goldman with all the dot-coms and certainly, you know, tech is a big push today with money, but it's really hard to compete with the compensation structure of Wall Street.

I have to ask this question.

I don't mean to be critical, but how how much of an ingenue, were you?

It's like I went to Barnard, which is also was at the time a women's college within a coed university.

But how you know, I knew about bad behavior of men in journalism.

It's it's was and I assume still is pretty bad despite the MeToo movement.

How could you not have heard or had some inkling of the abuse you were going to suffer?

I certainly had heard about it on Wall Street.

There was something about Goldman Sachs so that they really portrayed themselves to be the cream of the crop, the kind of top tier that, sure, maybe those things went on and kind of lesser institutions.

But when I was at Bryn Mawr, they had a women's event on campus.

And I went and the woman who spoke to us from Goldman Sachs was just smart, sharp, professional, and really made me believe that there it would be a little different.

But it wasn't.

Tell me a little bit more about that.

You had a baby and you were trying to pump milk at the office.

What happened with that?

I actually have four children and for my first two, I had twins I had wanted to pump.

And Goldman Sachs had lactation rooms.

And we were encouraged to use them.

And about a week before my return on that first maternity leave, my partner called me and said, I see you signed up for the lactation rooms, which I had.

And he said, Listen, you can use them, but you're going to have to make up the time.

And I imagine it's going to be hard to see the kids at all.

You know, you work so late, Imagine if you have to put in the additional time you are pumping, you're not going to see the kids awake at all during the work week.

So I was discouraged from the start and still for my first three children I did not pump, but for my last one I was committed.

At that point in my career, I knew I was leaving.

I wanted to be able to continue to nurse when I was gone.

And so I went to those lactation rooms and when I left that first time and I got up off my desk to go, the guys on the desk mooed at me like a cow.

And when I came back to the desk later on, they would leave me little gifts like cartons of milk and little stuffed animal cows.

One of the themes I really want to highlight in my book is the fact that not only this stuff happens, but it happens with a backdrop of policies that say the opposite, meaning it's a firm that says we want you to pump.

We have state of the art lactation rooms.

We have 24 hour lactation consultants.

But yet either you're discouraged from the start, like I was with my first kids, or when you actually use it, you're tormented.

And it's that dichotomy between what they portray themselves to be and what really happens.

Does Goldman not have an H.R.

department you could have gone to and pointed out these antics, so to speak, and gotten these guys in trouble, or at least shut them up for a while.

In my story, I worked there 18 years, so there's a lot of a lot of things that happened.

I would always complain.

So, in fact, I was assaulted by one of my colleagues who had pinned me against the wall, choking me because he was upset with the client I had assigned him.

The next day I pulled my manager aside and told him what happened and he said, You can go to H.R., but I'm not getting rid of this guy because he's a scratch golfer and this guy got him access to all the best golf courses in the world.

So he said, you could go to H.R., but imagine how hard it's going to be.

I'm not getting rid of 'em and you're going to have to work with him and he's going to know you reported him.

So many times I tried and I was discouraged.

But at the end of my career, I finally did go to H.R..

I was at a client event and my boss used a racial epithet at a person of color who worked at this bar we were at.

And I don't know, Bonnie.

For me, I had tolerated so much abuse with kind of in the Goldman walls, I perpetuated the abuse to I wasn't innocent, but something about being outside and seeing it happen.

I said, I have to say something.

And so Goldman has an H.R.

department.

They even had a hotline.

If you see something, say something, you know, you'll be anonymous.

There'll be no blowback if you report it.

I called.

I reported what I had witnessed.

I was promised anonymity.

The next day, my partner called me into the office.

Foolish me.

I thought it was to go over a profitability report.

And he berated me.

It was like a scene out of The Godfather.

He berated me for going against his family that, you know, you do not go to employee resources.

You do not go outside these walls.

If there's a problem, you come to me.

And from that point on, they really, really punished me.

All right.

You keep talking about your partner.

Oh, when I'm thinking you would be going to your boss.

The partner is kind of the figurehead overseeing the department.

And the partner is the highest level you can be at Goldman Sachs.

You also while you were there, I have to bring it up.

You bring it up in the book, you had an affair with a married man and you, were married with kids (Higgins) Yes, yes How did that affect your career there?

When I had an affair with him, his marriage was over.

Mine still was going on.

It was the worst mistake I have ever made.

And really, Bonnie, it just shows what large, powerful organizations can do to people.

In fact, when I first started at Goldman, they called me Sister Jamie because of my naivete.

I didn't get a lot of the off color jokes.

I would blush red when they were kind of saying inappropriate things.

The pressure at that point in my career to be a good mother, to be a good spouse, to be a good producer.

There just wasn't enough hours in the day.

I felt like I was trying so hard to be everything to everyone and just not being good enough for anyone.

And this man was someone I reported to.

He was not a partner.

He was a mentor.

He really helped me with my career and he was really a coping mechanism.

Here I was strung out.

He offered me an opportunity to have someone listen to me.

He advised me on work.

It didn't negatively impact my career in the way you would think.

In fact, it was a short lived event.

And then when I called it off, he actually left the firm.

So it wasn't it wasn't a direct impact on my career.

I would say it was more it was more of an indication of the type of pressure people are in in that environment and how that leads them to really bad choices.

And it was really at that moment that I realized I needed, you know, this guy was an escape for me.

But I realized what I really need to escape from was Goldman Sachs and that environment.

You were making obviously very big money, almost $900,000 a year.

Some women would say, I don't really feel sorry for you and you're making or it's hard to feel sorry for somebody who's who's who just has a bachelor's degree and is making that kind of money.

I totally get that and I appreciate that.

What I would say is I did make a lot of money, and that's why I put up with so much for so long, because coming from my background, in fact, Bonnie on my way to work every day, I used to pass the Jordache factory and I would see people with their paper lunch sacks walking in every day.

And I would say, How could you complain?

You're so lucky.

But what I would say is that the men made a lot more than the women, and they had to deal with a lot less to do it.

So even though the numbers are large on a relative basis, there's a huge pay disparity at that firm that I witnessed myself as a manager, and I have a real issue with that.

But you didn't sue them over it.

So I actually did at one point go to a lawyer because I was really trying to figure out my options.

And he told me that Goldman Sachs lawyers were the best and brightest in the world and that I would never be able to beat Goldman Sachs and that maybe I would bring a suit and maybe I would get a little money, but it would damage my reputation so much that his advice to me was to put up with it as long as I could and leave.

And so that's what I did.

You're not in finance anymore , are you?

(Higgins) I am not Obviously you wrote this book, and (Higgins) I am not.

I am not.

And I'll tell you, the biggest thing that Goldman Sachs did to me was for years, Bonnie, they would say not just to me, to everyone on the first day of work, the head of the orientation program said, welcome to Goldman Sachs, home of the most paranoid and insecure people in the world, because that's what it takes to put up with that environment.

I spent all those years there, Bonnie, because I believed the lies.

They told me that I was nothing without them, that I was nothing without their money.

In fact, one year after that big bonus was paid, you know where they tell you you're wonderful and they paid all this money?

My partner, my boss handed me and my colleagues bananas, literal bananas out of a basket, saying, this is to remind you you are all monkeys.

In my book and I can replace you in a second.

And there's a line out the door of people who will take your place.

So, so much of why stay there was a really made me feel like I would never make money anywhere else again.

And it's almost like a Jedi mind trick that they want to trick you.

And so I felt like I was a prisoner there.

The irony was the door wasn't locked.

I was able to leave at any time, but it really shows what large, powerful institutions, how they can wield influence over individuals.

And on that note, your book has been number one on the financial services book list of bestsellers.

Why do you think that's going on?

And is it, do you think it's having an impact?

Since the publication of the book, which is a month and a few days ago?

I have gotten close to 300 individual notes from people telling me how much my story resonates.

And it's not just people on Wall Street.

It is a lot of women in other male dominated industries, and it's men as well.

Because what I'm realizing is my story talks a lot about power and the, you know, power dynamic and you only need two people for a power dynamic.

So I'm hearing from people who work at small businesses.

And so I think my story transcends Wall Street.

Yes.

It's about Goldman Sachs.

That's the setting, because that's where I worked.

But from the personal messages I'm getting for people telling me how much they see themselves in the story, I realize that it really transcends Wall Street and it's more just a commentary on corporate America.

So you say you were not supportive of other women.

First of all, why and why not?

And has writing this book changed your attitude?

I always wanted to be supportive of women, and I always started it that way.

So a lot of women would come to me so and so, made a pass at me, so and so was inappropriate.

and I would start to advocate.

And time and time again, I was basically told to choose my career over theirs.

In fact, one of the women I mentored sued the firm, and my partner got a call from outside counsel saying, You're going to hear from outside counsel.

They want to know what it's like to be a working woman in my department at Goldman Sachs.

Surely you can't say anything negative about that.

We're promoting you this year.

So, Bonnie, I'm ashamed to say I didn't say anything.

I was very successful at Goldman because of my head for numbers, my incredible work ethic, but also my ability to keep my mouth shut.

And that's part of the reason why I wrote this book.

On some level, I want to make amends because although I initially did the right things for these women, when push came to shove, I didn't.

I believe it's because Goldman has a scarcity mindset with women.

It's a zero sum game.

If I'm going to win, Bonnie, then you have to lose.

We can't both win together.

And because of that mindset, although like the real Jamie inside wanted to help time and time again, I never really fully did it.

I always did it to a point.

And then I walked away and I'm not proud of it.

Let me ask you this.

If you did complain about everything that happened to you, can a woman be successful at at Goldman Sachs and still confront either the people who made passes at her or sent her you know, made fun of her or assaulted her?

Can can women who report those things continue to exist at the firm even now, many years after you left?

I'm hopeful.

That's the world I want to see.

I have three children.

Excuse me.

Three daughters.

Four children, three daughters.

That's what I want to see for them.

I think firms have a long way to go, and I think the first step is to address that scarcity mindset.

You know, Goldman, for example, is excellent.

They'll say 50% of the women excuse me, 50% of their new hires are women.

Awesome.

Female partners are still less than 20%.

Where do they go?

We have to get these women to stick.

And not only do we need this diversity representation, women, bipoc, LGBTQ plus at the higher level, but across the organization.

Because for me, again, I was a senior woman, but I wasn't bringing my sensibilities to the table.

I was successful because I assimilated with the men in the corner office.

I think if we really work on the pipeline of corporate America and have not only physical body representation, but also the empowerment that these women can speak up, I think we have a shot, but it's got to be more than just bringing them in the door.

It's got to be keeping those goals across from the new hire to the corner office to the C-suite.

When you, when the book came out Goldman released a statement to, interestingly, to Fox News saying that they have you know, guidelines and ways of dealing with these things and that if you had gone to H.R., whoever the protocol says, you should go to this, they would have been resolved and taken care of.

What do you say to that?

If you read the book, you'll see that I did go through those channels.

And listen, Goldman Sachs can say whatever they want.

You know, they're obviously entitled to their statement.

I just feel like I'm in a really good place now.

Bonnie, for 18 years, I lived and breathed by what Goldman Sachs thought of me and didn't tell the truth in order to stay in the good graces of Goldman Sachs.

And it feels really good now just to speak the truth, tell what happened.

And it doesn't really matter what they think about my book or what they have to say anymore.

What about the class action that's going to trial this year, early next year against Goldman Sachs?

For many of the kinds of things that you talk about in the book, what do you expect to see come out of that trial?

The interesting thing about that trial is it started in 2010 and it's going to go to trial in 2023.

So that, I think says a lot right there.

I stand with those women.

If you look at the gender Goldman gender case website, a lot of their claims are addressed in my book.

And I'm I'm hopeful and excited that these women are finally going to see their day in court after 13 years.

And maybe, you know, Bonnie, big change's happen, I think, over little actions.

So, you know, if every one of these things shifts, mindset, shifts, focus, challenges, thought.

I really think we're going to build some momentum.

You know, we've had all these amazing you know, MeToo Black Lives Matter, all these amazing social justice movements.

I want to ride that momentum.

And I think my story, that class action lawsuit, I'm hopeful it's going to make things better for my daughters when they enter the workplace ten plus years from now.

But do you really believe that or do you in your gut, do you think maybe the you know, not all men, obviously, but a large percentage of men just aren't ever going to change.

I mean, they're, you know, the guys at the firm who are still there from when you were there, they they went through the MeToo movement.

Do you think they changed it changed their behavior?

I really believe that if I had been assaulted at Goldman Sachs today, that that wouldn't be tolerated.

I think that guy would have been managed out really quickly.

I think all these experiences all these stories that are coming to light.

I'm hoping it gets these companies to not just have these talking points, but actually in the epilog of my book, I talk about things that you can actually do.

Set retention goals at all levels among an organization.

You know, we have compliance officers at Goldman Sachs that are constantly walking the floors to make sure the SCC doesn't knock on our door with a fine.

Why can't we have compliance officers who do stuff for culture issues?

You know, I really do think there's some low hanging fruit that can be picked that could really change the corporate experience for people.

And I think over time could make a difference.

Is it going to happen overnight?

No.

But do I think it could happen over the next ten years?

Yes.

And it was obviously worse.

You discuss in the book as well for people of color.

Tell me about that.

I am not a person of color, but as a manager, I saw time and time again not not treated with the respect they deserved, not given the opportunities they deserved.

Same with that LGBTQ plus community.

And again, I'm embarrassed to say I kind of just let it happen.

I would speak up from time to time, but I kind of let the machine just take over.

So it's not just a women's issue.

It's anybody in that organization who is the other, if you will.

Other than white privileged, white male.

That's right.

What about underprivileged white men?

If there were any of them there?

No, it's a great point.

And in my story, I talk about a guy who is a white man, but, you know, wanted to see his kids and wanted to leave early so he could spend time with his kids.

And that was not appreciated in his career.

Suffered for it.

One gentleman who I worked with he according to my partner, his career went downhill when he decided to start coaching his son's Little League team.

It's about assimilation to the values of the corner office.

And that's why if we change some of those people in the corner office by having those retention goals and again, it's not going to happen in six months, but if you have goals like that for 5 to 10 years out, then some of those things aren't going to happen.

Thank you so much Jamie Fiore Higgins And please stay involved in the conversation with us on Twitter, on Facebook, on Instagram, and whether you agree or think to the contrary, please join us next time.

♪♪ Funding for To the Contrary provided by E. Rhodes and Leona B. Carpenter Foundation.

The Park Foundation and the Charles A. Frueauff Foundation.