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- This is One-On-One.

- I'm an equal American just like you are.

- The way we change presidents in this country is by voting.

- I'’m hopeful that this is the beginning to accountability.

- Life without dance is boring.

- I don't care how good you are or how good you think you are, there is always something to learn.

- I did do the finale, and guess where my trailer was?

A block away from my apartment, it couldn'’t have been better!

- People call me 'cause they feel nobody's paying attention.

-_ It'’s not all about memorizing and getting information, it'’s what you do with that information.

- (slowly) Start talking right now.

- That's a good question, high five.

(upbeat music) - Welcome to "Remember Them."

Steve Adubato with my colleague, Co-host and Executive Producer Jacqui Tricarico.

Jacqui remember two extraordinary national leaders that have a New Jersey connection.

Talk about them.

- Yeah, two political leaders.

But first up we are going to be honoring Alexander Hamilton.

One of our founding fathers, right?

I think the name Hamilton now is a little bit more popular can I say, in a way, since the Broadway show opened up in January, 2015.

Lin-Manuel Miranda creating this exceptional Broadway Musical to bring to life that time in American history that is just so important for all of us to know.

And I think has kind of sparked the interest of young people, more so even in my generation, learning through Lin-Manuel Miranda's amazing Broadway show, more about Hamilton and you got to interview Dr. Andrew Shankman who is a historian with Rutgers University-Camden.

- Author of that book, What's that book?

- Yep.

Yeah.

"Original Intents," which he authored as well.

And he's just a great resource to learn more about Hamilton and our founding fathers.

- But Jacqui and we're talking about Hamilton what was his New Jersey connection?

Hamilton, everyone knows, incredible figure, important figure.

We talked to, to Shankman about the the duel that he had with Aaron Burr, Weehawken, gets shot.

Hamilton goes across the river to New York and dies the next day.

All right, but he had a New Jersey connection.

What was it?

- Yeah, there are lots of New Jersey connections and actually a lot of these places are just historical places that you can go visit.

Anybody can go visit to learn more about that time in history and specifically about Hamilton.

You know, he came here and New Jersey was his first stop and then eventually made his way into New York.

But you know, the Great Falls in Paterson is a site that you can visit.

There was a historic battle there.

The Battle of Monmouth there's a- - Sorry Jacqui, what about the Princeton Battlefield State Park?

That's the site where Hamilton commanded an artillery and bombarded Nassau Hall, in the Battle of Princeton.

What?

I didn't know that.

- Yeah, it it's right up the road for me actually.

I've brought my kids to that area.

We've seen some monuments there.

There's some hiking trails there, but yeah, he had a significant impact in Princeton, which is right up the road from me.

Like I said, it's such a historical site there.

The Battlefield State Park is still preserved as a historical site.

And there was just news the other day about finding some remains of some soldiers during the revolution and during, somewhere in the Red Bank, New Jersey area.

So, you know, this just happened the other day.

They excavated and found remains from these soldiers and different things.

So it's just a important way to bring it back to saying you know, these things happened in New Jersey.

They were extremely important to the start of the constitution and the founding fathers founding America.

And it's just really fun to hear more about Alexander Hamilton and hearing that from Dr. Shankman.

- And Shankman talks about "Original Intent."

What the heck was Hamilton's intent, along with those who were founding the constitution.

Today Jacqui and I "Remember Them."

Our team remembers Hamilton.

[UPLIFTING MUSIC] [UPLIFTING MUSIC] - Hamilton.

That's right, we're talking Alexander Hamilton right here on "Remember Them".

Dr. Andrew Shankman, author of "Original Intents"- you see it over my left shoulder, "Hamilton, Jefferson, Madison, and the American Founding".

Dr. Shankman, great to have you with us on "Remember Them".

- Thank you so much for having me.

It's good to be here.

- We remember Hamilton for so many reasons, obviously.

But make the New Jersey connection for us, please.

What was Hamilton's connection to New Jersey?

We will talk about a trip across the river, over in Weehawken, a little bit later, but other connections.

- Well, in certain ways, it's a story that I think a lot of New Jerseyites know, which is that he is really a New Yorker, but he is connected with New Jersey throughout his entire life.

So when he moved as a young, as a mid-teenager, from the West Indies to the mainland, in order to, what was still part of the British Empire, to be educated, his first trip was to the College of New Jersey, which later became Princeton University, for an interview with Jonathan Witherspoon, the famous President of that university, whom has a statue now in the quad.

And he didn't, it wasn't to his liking.

He didn't, he wanted to move at a faster rate in the curriculum.

He thought that he was beyond what College of New Jersey could offer, and then went to King's College, which later became Columbia.

But one of his earliest experiences was in New Jersey.

And then as an aide-de-camp to Washington during the Revolutionary War, he was with Washington throughout the war.

Much of Washington's campaign, particularly in the first year, was up and down New Jersey, famously crossing then re-crossing the Delaware River in December, as we all know.

And then later as Secretary of the Treasury, when he finally sort of put together his full financial plan, which culminated with an effort at trying to encourage a certain kind of manufacturing scheme, he placed that in Paterson, New Jersey.

And New Jersey was very much at the center of his plans and programs for his ambitions for the nation.

And then, of course, about a decade later, he was shot in New Jersey in a duel, and went back to- - Can we do Weehawken?

Let's get this, I hate to say, out of the way.

- Sure.

- Hamilton and Burr and Weehawken.

- Right.

- Set it up, the duel.

- Well, so they, Hamilton, Burr, like all the rest of them, had known each other.

All the famous founders had known each other for their entire adult lives, and had worked closely together, had been in plenty of social settings together, had known each other for years.

And if any of your listeners have read or watched, say, Jane Austin books or novels, you know there's a certain kind of decorum of behavior in which everybody treats each other very well on the surface, but can't stand each other underneath.

That was certainly the case with Hamilton and Burr, and that had been there- - Burr had what title?

- So, Burr was something closest to American royalty.

His grandfather and father had both been Presidents in what became Princeton University.

And he had been the Vice President with Thomas Jefferson as President from 1800 to 1804, had then been very unceremoniously dumped from the ticket, and replaced with the governor of New York, George Clinton.

And at that point, sort of out of national politics, was running to be governor of New York, and even to switch parties and to become, hopefully, the leader of the Federalist Party, that Hamilton- - What was their beef?

- Jefferson and Burr?

Well, so Jefferson and Burr's beef was that back then, they didn't, the Electoral College didn't work the way it did now.

Before the 12th Amendment in 1804, people didn't vote for a President, Vice President.

They voted for two people for President.

And everybody had to plan and structure appropriately so that their electors wouldn't throw away a vote to somebody else.

And the Republicans forgot to do that.

So- - Well, hold on.

Are you talking about election controversy back then?

I just wanna be clear.

- Yes, major election controversy.

So what happened in 1800 was that Jefferson and Burr actually received the same number of electoral votes, even though everybody always intended for Jefferson to be President and Burr to be Vice President.

And the honorable thing would've been for Burr to acknowledge what everybody wanted, and simply say that he would only serve as Vice President.

Instead, he tried to become President, which, to Hamilton's mind, fit his character completely.

Hamilton felt that Burr was an operator, only in it for himself, and didn't want him to become leader of his party, and made that very clear behind the scenes.

- Right.

- At the time when Burr had already been dumped from the other party by 1804.

So Burr sort of saw his options systematically being closed off.

Hamilton was a central figure in that.

And felt that if he was going to have any future as a significant figure in the Republic, he had to denounce Hamilton as somebody who had offended his honor, which is why he challenged him to a duel.

And in this very 18th century honor culture, Hamilton couldn't not respond to a duel that- - Hold on one second.

In the interest of time, why Weehawken?

- So, New York was already a place where it was dangerous to duel, and very much frowned upon.

It was not encouraged in New Jersey either, but they felt that there was less, that there would be less awareness in New Jersey.

It would be safer to do it there.

So they meet.

They're in Weehawken.

Did they have their people with them?

- Absolutely.

This is a very scripted event.

You have your seconds, who have been carrying on all the conversation prior to this.

And a doctor is present, if needed.

As it turned out, he was.

And this follows a very careful code.

In fact, both of them had been involved in what are called affairs of honor before, and affairs of honor which begin with a challenge, and then a sort of a carefully orchestrated dance of behavior, don't have to end in duels.

But Burr felt that he needed one.

And so he- - So in interest of time though, and I hate to do this, because we're learning about history, they walk X number of- - Yeah, ten paces.

- Ten paces, turn around.

Who does what and who doesn't do what?

- Well, then you have a choice.

You can fire in the air.

You can fire into the ground.

Hamilton had claimed, and there's no reason to doubt him, that he intended not to fire unless he was fired upon.

And, to this day, there are supporters, there are societies for supporting both Hamilton and Burr, and they still argue vehemently about what happened.

Given that Hamilton was shot and Burr wasn't, it does seem that Hamilton didn't fire at Burr, and Burr fired at him.

Burr fired and hit him.

Struck him above the hip with a wound that ended up, today probably wouldn't have been mortal, but then was.

Though it took, he didn't die until the following morning in agonizing pain.

- Boat back, they take the boat across the river back to New York.

He dies in New York the next day.

- Right.

And before dying, makes sure to make a statement and write a letter that will put Burr in the worst possible light in the 18th century.

He talks about how he felt that it was a public service to expose Burr's corrupt, interested figure, and that he died in the spirit of his nation.

In many ways, killing Burr really did put, killing Hamilton did put Burr on the trajectory of going south and committing the treason that ended his career.

- I wanna apologize to our audience.

There's so much about Hamilton that's important.

I apologize we took so much time on the duel.

Original intent of the Constitution.

Real quick, if you could, this is really, in many ways, so significant.

Dr. Shankman, the original intent of the Constitution, as defined by Alexander Hamilton, versus what it is today?

Your reaction?

- Sure.

So the first thing I would note is that the principle figures shaping the Constitution, in Hamilton and Madison, are two of the most significant.

But my book talks about how and why they came to disagree very vehemently, within a year or two of its ratification, of what they thought it meant.

So first we just wanna note that we want to be very careful about describing one central meaning that all the founders agreed upon, because they didn't.

And as early as 1791, were arguing publicly in the newspapers about major meanings.

Hamilton, I would argue, its hard, it's very difficult, and historians are very reticent to try and directly place the thinking of 18th century figures into the 21st century.

But Hamilton certainly had an argument that there were authorities and rights and powers that the national government had that could be interpreted from within the Constitution, even if they weren't explicitly stated in the Constitution.

So Hamilton would not be comfortable with the notion that something had to be explicitly stated, and explicitly in the language, for the national government to do it.

In fact, he's really, in many ways, is the person who conceives of the idea of it, what are called implied powers, powers that we can we can assume within the Constitution, but aren't expressly stated there.

What would Hamilton have thought, in your view, what would he have thought of January 6th?

- Well, I think Hamilton would've sounded like the most severe critics today do of January 6th, but he wouldn't have been critical of it for the same reasons they are.

So Hamilton was, as very few people in the 18th century were, it's not a criticism to say this of him, Hamilton was very much concerned of popular majorities acting on their own.

He, like so many, in fact, like Jefferson, he really did feel that what a good Republic needed, a sound and durable Republic needed, was what he considered a natural aristocracy.

- Right.

- Not people born to govern, not through virtue of birth, but through talent, ability, capacity, and, particularly, education.

And that the people not directed by a natural urge to aristocracy would be likely to engage with what he considered, what he would've described as wildly- - He would not have been in favor of violence of this form.

- Not at all.

- In the US Capitol, in Congress.

- And particularly he wouldn't have supported the idea, the language he would've used would've been, "interested demagogues whipping up impressionable people to behave in ways that were irresponsible."

- You know, Dr. Andrew Shankman, the author of "Original Intents".

Pick it up, folks.

Find out more.

We only scratched the surface talking about Hamilton, Jefferson, even though it's not my job to talk about Jefferson, Madison, and the American Founding.

Dr. Shankman, cannot thank you enough for joining us.

Really appreciate it.

- Oh, my pleasure.

It was great to talk with you.

- You got it.

- This is "Remember Them".

Stay with us.

Don't forget us.

We'll be right back.

- [Narrator] To watch more One on One with Steve Adubato find us online and follow us on Social media.

- Now, "Remember Them" looks at Grover Cleveland, and Jacqui, we talked to his grandson, George, right?

- Yeah, and some people might say, "Wait, his grandson, how does that timing work out?"

But it does, the timing works out.

He never met his grandfather but he definitely resembles his grandfather and you'll see that during your interview with George Cleveland.

And Grover Cleveland is just such an important person to remember, had an impact here in New Jersey, actually resided here in Princeton after his presidency and is buried in Princeton.

And some fun facts, he was the only US president to be born in New Jersey.

- Caldwell, New Jersey?

- Yep, yep.

And then he also was the only president to serve two unconsecutive terms in office.

In between, Benjamin Harris took over and then he got back into office after that, so really interesting person to remember, a political powerhouse, and we get to hear straight from George Cleveland, some fun tidbits that maybe not most people know who aren't part of the family.

- And you know what's funny about Grover Cleveland too, he ended up residing in Princeton, being a big part of the Princeton University campus and teaching, but he himself never even graduated college.

So very interesting.

- That's not true.

That can't be true.

- It is, it's true.

- But he taught at Princeton, never graduated college?

- Yeah, yeah.

He was on Princeton campus quite a bit and did a lot of things with the university, but hearing that he never actually graduated college is a really interesting tidbit too.

- Yeah and his, Jacqui and the team found George Cleveland, Jacqui and the team, they're just like, "Who should we have talking about?

"Let's have his grandson."

Had a connection to his, he never, I was like, there was a big gap 'cause he wasn't alive, his grandfather died so much earlier, but man, does he really have a sense of his grandfather.

So we look at Grover Cleveland through the eyes of George, for Jacqui, myself and the entire "Remember Them" team, let's look at Grover Cleveland.

- We are honored to be joined by George Cleveland, the grandson of President Grover Cleveland, the 22nd and the 24th President of these United States.

George, good to see you.

- Steve, thank you so much for asking me to be with you.

It's a real, real pleasure.

I really enjoy your show.

I've been able to watch a lot of them, and it is really my pleasure to be here.

- That's very kind of you.

The 22nd and the 24th President of the United States.

Jacqui Tricarico, my colleague and I on Remember Them just talking about this.

Only president to serve these non-consecutive terms, right?

- Messed up the whole count.

That's right, that's right.

The only one.

The only one.

- How did that happen?

- Well, he got voted in, he got voted out, and then the voters realized they'd made a horrendous mistake, so they voted him back in.

- Born in Caldwell, New Jersey.

- Yes, indeed.

- But was the governor of New York?

What year again?

Was it 1883?

- Oh, it was governor of New York, yes, because he was in midterm.

It was a very rapid climb from being mayor of Buffalo to Governor of New York and then being asked to run for President.

- But if he...

I'm sorry, but born in Caldwell then to New York.

- Right.

- And is then to Princeton?

- Way later to Princeton.

He was born in Caldwell, his father was the minister at the Presbyterian church there.

And he was then asked as ministers get shifted around a lot, he went out to Fayetteville in upstate New York right next to Syracuse where he had a parish there.

Grover went with him and was there for some of his very formative teenage years.

And then he came to the greater New York, New Jersey area.

He was working at the New York School for the Blind, that his brother was high up in helping to operate.

Then went back to upstate New York, said, "I'm gonna go out to Ohio to visit relatives" 'cause Cleveland, Ohio was founded by relatives.

And on his way, he got waylaid in Buffalo by an uncle who said, "Why don't you stay and help me work with my farm?"

And he stayed and stayed and stayed and eventually went to study law.

And from there got interested in politics.

He never,see, he never had an actual former formal education.

Back then you didn't necessarily go to law school.

If you clerked with an attorney, eventually that could get you admitted to the bar.

- Let me ask you this, your connection directly to your grandfather, ever meet him?

- Oh no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

I would need to be about 114, I think, to have done that.

And hopefully, I don't look that.

- But you did hear about him from your dad.

- Oh Lord yes.

Grover died in 1908 and I was born quite a few years after that.

And my father would've been 11 when he died, but my father did have some very distinct memories of him, primarily in doing outdoor pursuits.

'Cause Grover, one of the things he really loved was being outside fishing and hunting.

And he always said he would much rather have been doing that than, but he was, you know Grover said that a public office is a public trust and that wasn't just a tagline for him.

He actually believed that, and said that, if you're doing the people's work, you have to do the people's work.

And you know, he couldn't go and drop a line in the Potomac when he wanted to.

- My understanding is our producers told us that you have at times, do you, I don't wanna say dress up.

You have you impersonated, how do I, how do I put this?

- It's a tough word.

It's a, it's a tough word.

One year on my income tax, when I'd done a lot of these Grover Cleveland presentations, and one of the things that said under occupation was impersonating President of the United States.

(laughing) I said, gee, is that something I really want the IRS to know about.

- Exactly.

- Yeah.

But I do, do that from time to time.

There is a resemblance, which I then like to follow up by immediately pointing out from the neck up and I still have to, thank you God, stuff a pillow in there to totally resemble him.

But we do look alike and it is.. - Can we talk about that?

I'm sorry for interrupting - Sure, no - Was he a big man?

- He was big.

Our best estimates are at one point he had a 56 inch waist and I know that during one summer party we went through a big trunk at our house in New Hampshire and found a pair of his long underwear and three of us were able to fit comfortably in there at one time.

And they are now on display in the Conway, New Hampshire Historical Society if anybody has a real need to go visit.

He was, of course, not the largest president.

That was President Taft.

- Howard Taft.

Is that right?

- William Howard Taft.

- William Howard Taft.

Yeah.

So let me ask you this.

So you growing up as a kid.

Your dad, Richard, right, is telling you all about your grandfather, you know he was the President of the United States, but I'm only a few towns away from Caldwell, New Jersey.

And Caldwell has Grover Cleveland all over it.

Grover Cleveland School, this, that signs all over.

- Right.

- To what degree do you sense that Grover Cleveland the President of, 22nd and 24th President of the United States, your grandfather had any real feeling for Caldwell, New Jersey?

- I think because he was so young, Steve, when he when he left, you know, I don't know how well-developed that feeling may or may not have been.

But you know, it was where he was born.

It was his birthplace and that, you know that meant a lot to him.

And I think he'd be really honored by the fact that Caldwell is remembering him so fondly.

You know, technically Grover is the second most famous resident of Caldwell, the first being, of course, Tony Soprano.

- I knew that was coming.

- And by the way- - Tony was in west Caldwell, I think, so I don't know if there's a fine line there or not.

- There are multiple Caldwells and in fact, the great James Gandolfini has been featured in the Remember Them series.

If you look on our website you'll see it come up, SteveAdubato.org You'll click on, Remember Them, and you'll see the... - Almost needed tissues watching that.

It was a wonderful show.

I did watch that show.

Thank you for doing that.

- No, thank Jacqui Tricarico and the team for making that happen.

Let, let me ask you this, Please do in the time we have left, talk about the Princeton connection.

- He had a lot of friends in Princeton.

And usually when he wasn't in Washington, they had a place in New York and, of course, they had a much beloved place up on Buzzards Bay, Bourne in Cape Cod, that was technically what you would've called the summer White House back then.

But he had a lot of friends in Princeton.

He had a lot of academic friends and they said why don't you come to Princeton?

And Princeton asked him to be on their board and which he did.

And he really enjoyed being able, he lectured a lot, but he liked having the students come over and just sit down and talk about issues and - At Princeton University?

- At, oh yeah.

At Princeton University, right.

And just chat and plus back then, Princeton being a little less populous than it is right now.

You know, the fields and streams around Princeton were full of things that he liked to go hunt and fish for.

So he loved that.

He loved that part as well.

And, and it's my understanding, Princeton also loved him.

And of course that's where he's buried as well as the rest of that generation of my family.

- Before I let you go, George, real quick the connection between Grover Cleveland and Hawaii.

Give me a minute on that.

- Ooh, a minute on that.

One of the interesting things about Grover is that he had developed a relationship with a woman, Queen Lili'uokalani, who became the last queen of Hawaii.

And they had come to the White House.

They had become very good friends.

We, the United States, overthrew the kingdom of Hawaii in 1893.

And that was between Grover's two terms.

When Grover got back into office one of the very first things he tried to do was get the overthrow overthrown.

He sent one of his people over there to study it and see what happened.

And it was one of the great disappointments of his second term that he was not able to get Hawaii returned to being a sovereign nation.

And, you know, it went down the road and it is interesting to note that there is, no one, and if somebody listening here can find it, hey, more power to you, no one has ever been able to find an official treaty of annexation that formally annexed Hawaii to the United States.

So there is a large number of people in Hawaii who say that basically, Hawaii is a fake state.

And he did every everything he could, but unfortunately it didn't work.

And I've made lots of very close friends in Hawaii and appreciate the work that they're trying to do there, to get a little sovereignty back.

But, the United States had a habit of doing that to countries.

- George Cleveland, grandson of President Grover Cleveland, President of the United States, 22nd, 24th.

George, cannot thank you enough for joining us.

On Remember Them.

- Steve.

Thank you.

And of course, Grover's greatest legacy, rest area on the New Jersey Turnpike.

- Yeah, you're right.

That, Hall of Fame did that.

Thank you so much.

- Thank you, take care.

- That's why we remember Grover Cleveland.

You got it.

- [Narrator] One on One with Steve Adubato has been a production of the Caucus Educational Corporation.

Funding has been provided by PSE&G, NJM Insurance Group.

Hackensack Meridian Health.

The New Jersey Education Association.

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And by New Jersey Sharing Network.

Promotional support provided by New Jersey Globe.

And by New Jersey Monthly.

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