- Just ahead on Black Issues Forum, for generations, the black church has been more than a place of worship.

It has been a refuge, an organizing space, a source of hope, healing, and resistance.

But something is shifting.

Younger generations are questioning traditions, leaving the church, or redefining faith.

It's a conversation about faith, spirituality, and generational divides.

Coming up next, stay with us.

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(upbeat music) - Welcome to Black Issues Forum, I'm Kenia Thompson.

For many of us in the black community, our first understanding of faith began in church.

It's where we learned how to pray, how to sing, how to hope, sometimes even before we fully understood what any of it meant.

But generations change, and today it seems like many people are reexamining what faith looks like in their lives, some choosing spirituality over religion, meditation over traditional prayer, and healing over hierarchy.

Joining me to explore the reasons behind these shifts and how some churches are responding are Reverend Sheritta Williams.

She's the young adults minister at Mount Level Baptist Church, working directly with young people navigating faith in real time.

Also with us is licensed mental health counselor, Khalid Greenaway, whose work centers healing, spirituality, and mental health outside of traditional religious frameworks.

And lastly, Pastor Wrenwyck Williams of Dunamis Ministries, who brings a pastoral and theological perspective rooted in church leadership and doctrine.

Thank you all for being here.

- It's our pleasure.

- Yeah, this is gonna be a really robust conversation, I feel, it may even challenge some things.

So let's get to it.

I've been hearing over the years, I think especially after the pandemic, and I want you guys to check me if it's true or not, that people are leaving the church, right?

So I wanna ask that question of each of you.

Is it true that people are leaving the church?

And if so, what are they leaving to seek?

Sheritta, we'll start with you.

- I think that it's true in the sense that you have to look at the age demographic of who is leaving the church.

And in the black church, it is Millennials and Gen Zers, who are the biggest age gap that are missing from most mainline historically black churches in the country.

So that's your Baptist churches, your Methodist connection, AME, AME Zion, CME, Pentecostal, Holiness.

They're leaving those denominational churches, sometimes going to non-denominational churches or not going at all.

- Right, right.

- And so you see that trend, especially with the age group around 25 and younger.

You really see it.

- And to that point, when I was in college, I grew up Catholic.

I found myself leaving to go to a non-denominational church.

So that makes sense for me.

Pastor Wrenwyck, what is your thoughts?

- I will concur with what Pastor Sheritta is saying that yeah, people are definitely leaving the church.

And it's a variety of different reasons.

Certainly the Generation Zers, the Millennials are certainly leaving.

They're searching for something different than just what we typically would call religion.

And I think there's various reasons for that.

And I think right off the top, it's an easy one.

It's low hanging fruit is church hurt, judgment, condemnation, and people in certain ways, as far as the bondage that it creates.

But also I think there is hypocrisy, at least from their perspective.

They see hypocrisy.

They see people with huge platforms.

They see inconsistent morality.

And so we see individuals that are teaching or preaching one segment of the way that life should be lived, but they aren't living it.

And with this generation, I think that one last thing, I think that there is a delusionment as it pertains to, well, what is the advantages?

With this generation is, what are the advantages of going to church?

What am I gonna get from the church that I can't get, that I can't get elsewhere?

And I think one of the main things is this.

So if we share with this group, oh, by the way, you know you've won the lottery, yes, but you don't get the proceeds until you die.

To get this group to accept that notion that the only reward from being here is heaven, I don't think it's been accepted to the extent it was with our generation.

With our generation, heaven was enough.

- Yeah, yeah.

- At least for a while.

- I think it's a combination of things because I'm seeing it all across the board.

See, I get to serve clients from celebrities, people in royal families, all kinds of, all around the world, you know?

And I'm seeing they want more and they have more access to information through their phones so they can find out the truth.

So when we used to try to question things, we got shut down and they want something real, like pastors saying, and they really want to experience freedom and the power and they're tired of the bondage, you know?

And now, I really feel like now they're asking questions and they're knowing, they're sensing that it's more 'cause something that pastor says all the time is the truth, I give witness to it on the inside because we're so much more than just these physical forms.

You know, so it's such a combination of things.

And now people are willing to step outside the box when they weren't before because they'll be ostracized.

Even, I don't even know if they'd be ready for someone like pastor and the teachings of Dunamis and things like that, even 10 years ago, you know what I mean?

So I think we have to grow into a time and it is a time where I feel like things are evolving.

- They are.

And so I'm gonna use my own experience because I went, you know, again, I grew up in the Catholic Church, which was very regimented, very traditional, and I could literally go through service with my eyes closed, but not knowing what any of that meant, right?

And so even in trying to step out to a non-denominational church, it felt almost disrespectful to my elders, to my ancestors, because it almost felt like I'd outgrown what they'd given me.

And there was just this kind of internal battle there.

And so when we look at the youth today, and I'll speak to you, Sheritta, because I know you deal directly with the younger generations, do they feel, because we have more access to information, more empowered to do so?

It just seems like, I don't know, they're kind of leading a new path or journey in this spiritual walk.

- Sure, that's a great question.

I think in looking at the young adults that I work with, that I minister to, and that I've been walking with now at Mount Level for nine years, I see it on, it's like a both/and.

They're asking the questions, but that's because they're getting the proper teaching.

And so we come from a church, Mount Level Missionary Baptist Church, pastor is very well-educated, but very spirit-filled.

And he always teaches, Dr.

Turner always teaches, is that God is not intimidated by your intellect.

You can ask the questions.

I learned in seminary, you can interrogate the scripture.

That's what it's there for.

And I don't think people have been given the space to do that.

And so you see churches that are more traditional, Mount Level is a traditional Baptist church in the black church tradition.

And so you have people that are coming, we have young people who are coming and bringing their families.

They've been to the non-denominational churches and they don't like it because they're seeing that truth is not being preached.

It's prosperity gospel.

There's other things that are being taught and they want the truth.

They wanna know about salvation, sanctification, holiness, sin.

They're seeing things that aren't being talked about and you're like, well, wait a minute, why don't you have a cross in your church?

- Right.

Well, okay, and you said something that piqued my thought and I want the two of you to chime in.

When we talk about proper education when it comes to church and religion, and how does that intersect with spirituality versus religion?

Are they the same?

- Not the same, even the word religion came from the Greek word.

This is Keone Greek.

That's the entire New Testament, as you might know, they already know is written in Greek.

That word came from relegor, which means to bind, right?

And the original word from the first century, it means to bind, it means to keep a structure of procedures and rituals.

This is the exact meaning.

This isn't me like making it up.

And then what happens is Augustine of Hippo, he's the one in the fourth century that came up with original sin.

That's where that come from.

It was a theory, right?

He tried, he changed it and they put it out there.

Okay, it's binding to God, but you have to keep these rules right here because, and the true reason, a lot of people don't wanna hear this.

The reason they married church and state was to gain political control 'cause Christianity existed prior to Constantine in the third century.

I'll go into that a little more a little later on, but spirituality was, so it went from a spiritual movement and Constantine killing Christians to Constantine killing people if they didn't convert, right?

And a large change happened during that time because it was based on three things Jesus taught.

These three things is they teach about Jesus, but not what he taught.

He taught love, transformation, and oneness with God.

That's it.

You know what I'm saying?

That's if we're looking at the teachings, then they came in and they made it something different because Constantine and Augustine of Hippo, they're really the forefathers to Western religion, to Western Christianity beyond the black church.

The black church was springboarded out of slavery.

If we wanna be honest about it, about the scripture about slaves, be obedient to your master.

I can go into even the origins of that scripture.

- Can I chime in just to kind of, I would say course correct.

When you talk about the black church is not just a springboard out of slavery.

It was birthed as an act of holy resistance.

- Good, got you.

- In the hush harbors.

- That's true.

And that's what Jesus did as well.

- Exactly.

It was social protest.

It was condemnation of a Christ that was being preached that was antithetical to the gospel of Jesus Christ.

And so it's not abstract.

It is an institution.

It's called the institutional black church for a reason.

And it still exists.

And it's separate from white Christianity.

- That's a part of their definition of religion to institution.

- I saw you trying to chime in.

- Yeah, 'cause I'm concurring with some of it.

I think that one thing we have to look at when we talk about spirituality in religion, in Sharia, they use the word truth.

So we had to ask ourselves, okay, what is the truth?

Is the truth solely based on what the Bible said?

And that's what most people will contend.

Well, if the Bible didn't say it, then it's not true.

- But people are questioning that now.

- There you go.

And that's why we see some.

But if we had to consider Jesus, if you will, was never religious.

Even to the extent Jesus wasn't a Christian, Buddha wasn't a Buddhist.

And so when you look at those things from a macro, religion, I believe, this is my perspective, it's man-made.

Jesus was never religious.

Buddha was never religious.

It's a man-made construct and it has its own motivation.

And so when we step out of that man-made construct as far as why were things done the way they were, why were things said the way they were, why were there so many translations and modifications?

There's motivation behind that.

Really quickly, so when I look at religion, and we love everybody, so we aren't going to try to defame anyone, but it's more to me about an aquarium.

And it has limitations, right?

And it's dependent.

Dependent on what?

The fish that live in the aquarium are dependent on someone coming by and feeding them every day.

And if they don't get the food, they perish.

Spirituality is the ocean.

There are no limits to it.

And it's independent.

Everything that you need is already there.

You have access to it all.

- And some would argue that the church, and I can even go past the black church, but the church as an institution itself has been used as a tool of control, right?

When we look at how it's been used throughout history and over the decades.

- Sure.

- What is the difference between obedience in spirituality and religion and control that the church sometimes seems to have?

- Yeah.

- I don't know who wants to-- - I have a question though.

I have a question because of what she said.

It got me to thinking, right?

And so did these people that was taken as slaves, did they have their own religion?

Because yeah, they used it as a protest, but they had a spirituality that existed prior to coming to America, which is how they got the information to build the Sphinx and these structures that they don't even know how they built today.

Then they use scriptures like, I don't know how accurate it is, just when I was studying history, is it talks about slaves being encouraged to use the scripture, slaves be obedient to your master and masters be good to your slaves.

But even that word, right?

It begins with a C in the original Greek.

That word means bond servant.

It means like a household servant, a student that's a servant to like a doctor and he's doing an apprenticeship.

It wasn't something that was permanent.

- The word is-- - You know, the word, exactly.

Yeah, that's the word.

So it wasn't something that was permanent.

The word and the travesty that took place over here and they beat out even their rituals that they came here with and they're saying is wrong.

And then a lot of it, trust me, I followed the teachings of Jesus, but they beat out a lot of the people's original spirituality and they said it was evil and it was wicked and this is what you need to do.

- But that's to a degree because not all enslaved Africans who came to this part of the diaspora were of another religion.

There were some who were Christian.

- You gotcha.

- But this Christianity has been existent in Africa, in Ethiopia, long before it ever got to the shores of America.

- Great information, but not everybody's privy to this knowledge, right?

All they see is what media shows us of church, right?

Of their personal experience in the buildings.

And so again, going back to the conversation of people kind of exiting out of black church and what it's been for us, what is it that we are now searching for?

Is it these answers?

- That's a great question, Kenia.

I think that, here's the thing.

I think that people now are searching not for agreement, not for agreement with Bishop so-and-so said or what the grandfather said or the great grandfather said.

They're searching for truth.

They're questioning the norms that we have.

And if you wanna use scripture, it said, "Be not conformed, but transformation."

How?

By the renewing of your mind.

So if your mind is not renewed, then you can't transform.

And I think it's important that we look at the word renew.

What does renew mean?

What is re?

Re means again.

That means put it back again to what?

To its original state.

And I think people are in a space now where they're sent into a higher level of consciousness.

Khalid used the word awareness.

There's a cognizance that there's something else.

And are we being taught what that something else is?

Or are we just being taught, like you said, from an obedient perspective for what?

For the purpose of controlling.

- What is the church doing today?

And Sheritta, I'll pivot this to you since you are currently at a local church.

What is the church doing today to give us the truth?

And then how do we as patrons and members of the church body know that we are being given the truth?

- Right, that is a great question.

And I think, like I said before, it all starts in the teaching.

The preaching is wonderful.

That's one of the things that people love about the black church experience.

Can't nobody hoop like a Baptist black preacher.

Can't nobody squall like a church of God and Christ preacher or evangelist.

But after that, then what?

This is where Christian education is huge.

And I can say that within my denomination within the National Baptist Convention, USA Incorporated, which is the largest of the black Baptist denominations in this country, our Christian education department is strong.

That is where the training comes in.

Sunday school, Bible study, making sure that your preachers and your teachers go to seminary, a good seminary, so that they can learn how to interrogate the text, to exegete, and also so that they can search out truth and that they can teach it in a way that people can understand it.

That's part of the issues that people are not going to school or the right schools, I should say, I'm a big proponent of that.

- Yeah, well, and I'll let you add, but I want you to think about this as well.

So that's for folks that are in the church, going to church.

- Even those who are out, because you have outreach ministries, you have, my church is a missionary Baptist church.

So that means we are out in the community.

And so we are doing church in the streets.

We're doing street corner ministry.

We're hosting Bible studies at shelters for the unhoused, at housing projects.

You have to go where the people are.

That's part of the issue is that people do not want to leave where they are in the four walls of the ecclesia and go out.

- Yeah, what were you gonna add?

- So I was gonna add, 'cause I think one thing that's very, very important is, are we saying, or are we suggesting that without the teaching, without the schooling, without the education, right?

Without the formal aspects of seminary, can one still not know truth?

In other words, is it limited to understanding of these periodicals?

And see, and I think that's an area where people are becoming, wait a second, if I never read that, I still have awareness.

There is still something else within myself.

There is still relationship.

There is still dialogue.

There's still inspiration, even if I don't do that.

And then we started looking at people's lives.

It's like they said, well, we're looking at how people are living who aren't necessarily attending the traditional aspects.

But if you look at their life, it's like, well, wait a second, they're doing that without this.

- I wanna bring Khalid in real quick.

I want you to add something to this.

But what responsibility do we have as individuals outside of the church to still fall in alignment with the things that are being said here?

And you can add your thoughts.

- The thing is, the Bible says, "Let every man work out his own salvation," right?

And I wanna tap into also what pastor was saying because there's something powerful there because you have to understand before the Bible existed, what did they do?

Because truthfully, Jesus is quoting from his predecessors that the stuff he's saying existed long before him.

You can compare it to some of the things that Buddha said, and even prior to him, the universal laws, things that Krishna pointed out.

So he was pointing out universal laws.

People came and created a religion surrounding him.

And then also even at the Council of Nicaea that Constantine sent out, there were millions of scrolls and they chose what would be in and what would be out.

And I don't trust these men 'cause I've studied their lives.

These men committed travesties.

So why would they put something in there?

And they still did anyway.

You have scriptures like 1 John 4:17, Ephesians 1:23.

And for that, even if I have to point out what it says in Ephesians, I love how Apostle Paul points out some things.

He talks about awareness and enlightenment of who you are.

And Ephesians 1 and 16, the same power that raised Jesus from the dead lives in you.

And even Jesus himself, "Father, I don't pray that you take them out the world or you leave them in the world.

They didn't realize that you're one with us and we're one with them."

And so he was praying that they understand who they are.

So for me, once you get that awareness, and most believers don't even understand what meditation is.

'Cause you- - That was gonna be my next segment.

- And I teach meditation from a psychological aspect because there's 500 scientific benefits to it.

Some of them are it increases the gray matter in the prefrontal cortex, the hippocampus.

It's just like a stronger muscle, which is responsible for executive function and emotional regulation.

It shrinks the amygdala, which is responsible for fear and anxiety and things like that, along with a number of other things.

Along with it having the potential to up your IQ by 10 points.

But, and it allows you to tap into a space that goes beyond the body.

Because watch this, there are some monks that can control their central nervous system and regulate their even down to their metabolism.

So as I've learned, even pastor points out a lot of times, to be absent from the body and present with the Lord isn't just in death, that's when it's been taught.

You can be absent from it about every single day.

I was there from detachment from the ego because that's not who we are.

- Well, we've got about four minutes left.

Yeah, I would love for you to touch on prayer versus meditation too, if you've got thoughts on that.

- I love how author Richard J. Foster puts it in his book, "Celebration of Discipline."

There are for Christians, there are inward disciplines and outward disciplines.

And prayer and meditation are part of those inward disciplines.

And I think that a lot of believers have not been taught that.

What is meditation?

Why is that important?

And it goes with prayer, it goes with fasting.

- Witchcraft, as soon as you mentioned the worst, the most believers.

- Right, and that, but again, it goes to lack of education.

- Anything that's not understood becomes demonic.

Anything that's not understood, we have to fear.

And if I could just add one last thing, I know our time is always up, I think it's important.

One of the reason we talk about people leaving, it has, with this generation, it has to make sense.

Now, how, so watch this.

We have a loving God, loving, who states in the Bible, if you've received the Bible as a source of truth, that he hates sin.

If you hate sin, why did you create your child born in sin and shaping iniquity?

And we start asking questions like that, it's like, wait a second, how does that correlate?

- I wanna ask this question, which will likely be our last one.

Is the goal to bring people back to church?

Is the goal to still have church as we've known it?

Or is the goal to allow people to experience God and spirituality in the way that's most authentic to them?

- I have a quick question because, I ain't gonna question a statement, is really I feel what Jesus came to bring, illumination or enlightenment.

So that's what people are in search of, enlightenment, higher consciousness, there has to be more than this.

And to pass this point, right, with Psalm, that comes from Psalm 51, born in sin, shaped in iniquity, you have to take it into context.

See, David, who that's credited with that, I don't know for sure, he's credited with the Psalms.

And-- - Most of them.

- Most of them, he's credited with most of them, but they're saying with that particular one, right, and contextually, he was going through different things, he did a lot of wild stuff, you know what I mean?

And he was feeling down about himself and he was very poetic.

So people took that as doctrine, like if there's an act of born in sin and shaped in iniquity, that's something that he said that he was, that's how he felt, because he kept missing the mark.

And that's what he said, I'm born in sin, that wasn't something that Jesus even, go ahead, no, go ahead.

- Yeah, we've just got about a minute 30 left, so I want to hear your thoughts on, are we-- - Sure.

- Bringing people back or are we allowing them to experience it as they want?

- Well, I would say this as a pastor, as someone who believes not just in the institution of the church, and I know people don't like that word, but I use it on purpose.

The institution of the Holy Church and who Jesus is, was and is to come, I do believe that it is bringing people back to the church and the church is the body of the people, the ecclesia, the place where people are set apart and consecrated and used for the use and the glory of God.

And it's also salvation.

You cannot see the Lord until you come through Jesus Christ and that comes with salvation.

- Well, I know you're looking at me, but we've got like 40 seconds, if not 30s.

- Gotcha, so to respond, I think that we're allowing individuals to experience the relationship, to experience their journey on their own.

Take the journey on your own, ask the questions, right?

And then even if we define salvation, salvation is Western.

Eastern is enlightenment, last part.

When the wave, the wave, W-A-V-E, becomes aware that it is the ocean, salvation takes place.

- Thank you, thank you, Pastor Wrenwyck, Reverend Sheritta Williams, Khalid Greenaway.

Thank you so much, I appreciate you all.

- It's a pleasure, enjoy.

- And I thank you for watching.

If you want more content like this, we invite you to engage with us on Instagram using the hashtag #BlackIssuesForum.

You can also find our full episodes on pbsnc.org/blackissuesforum and on the PBS video app.

I'm Kenia Thompson, I'll see you next time.

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