>> Ted: This is partisan official election information and it features republican candidate for superintendent of public instruction and it's not a formal debate, but an open exchange of ideas for candidates for one of the state's most important ideas.

As such, interjections are allowed and closing statements in the opposite order and joining us are former state attorney general Tom horn and state representative Michelle Udall and Shiry Sapir.

There we go and they're all ready to go and let's get to opening statements, and we will begin with Michelle Udall.

>> I'm Michelle Udall, and I'm a mother and teacher for public instruction because our students deserve high quality public education and we need educational leaders with high quality in our exsystem.

My interest is not something that came to me or that is fleeting.

16 years ago, when my oldest began Kindergarten, I got involved with our public schools and started volunteering in the classroom and PPO and ran for the school board in Mesa and spent four years trying to improve public schools in Mesa and working with teachers, parents and students to listen to concerns and help solve problems.

One of the problems I encountered on the school board was that a lot of our students were failing Algebra one and I helped to solve that problem as a teacher in the classroom and I hope for your support.

>> Ted: Now we turn to Tom horn.

>> Republican voters want to know who is most qualified to do the difficult and important task of critical race theory out of our schools I am that person.

In addition to former attorney general as Ted told you, I'm a superintendent of schools and at that time, Tucson had a race theory program.

I destroyed it.

I did it once and can do it again.

Arizona performed above average and the national test that states could not manipulate and since then, leadership focused on academics has declined student test scores declined I will bring back emphasis on academics and other priorities of mine are that students who need to learn English will be not bilingual and so that employers know diplomas mean something and we do not graduate any more illiterate kids.

>> Ted: Let's turn to Shiry Sapir.

>> I'm a wife, mother of three young children and I've been watching the education system fail.

We've seen overgrooming become rampant and I don't trust anyone who has been in the system in my capacity.

Bringing the change that we all want to see for our children in our schools and I've been traveling around the state now for almost a year and I have spoken to thousands of constituents who told me that what we worry about is parental rights and parental control, school choice, accountability that they pay for and the education level and academic excellence failing our children and I'm looking forward to the vote.

>> Ted: Let's start with you, Michelle, the role of public instruction and what should that role be?

>> Well, the superintendent of public instruction is the lead of the department of education in the state and it's the lead education of the state and many other things and while they are not policy makers, they have a big influence on our students and on what they're learning and how the laws are enforced.

>> Ted: How much should that policy influence be?

>> The legislation makes policy and the superintendent is influencing that policy and have a voice on the state board and hopefully relationship with legislators to make good policy.

>> Ted: The role of the office and how much advocacy should be done?

>> Yes, Ted, actually, the constitution sets up two offices the state board of education and the superintendent, but it doesn't say anything else and leads it up to the legislature to determine what the different roles will be and the last time I was superintendent, for example, the leaders of the legislature knew I was in sync about getting ready of bilinqual education and gave me total policy power over teaching kids English and they have a policy role, depending on what the legislature decides, and also as a part of the state board of education, and hopefully influencing the state board of education.

>> Ted: As far as the roll of public instruction, what is it and what should it be?

>> The administrative role, so some of the responsibilities would be to manage the budget from the legislature and to implement policies by the state board of education, transmitting information to the school boards and oversee teacher certification.

All of these are key to implementing good policies and good environmenting and I believe that the superintendent sets the tone, especially in the environment that we're in right now, so politicized and education needs to have people that leading only family and children-based policies and I think that's what's lacking in our education system right now.

>> Ted: Shiry, I've heard the phrase critical race theory.

Define critical race theory.

>> Well, somebody once said I can't define critical race theory and know when I see it and that's how all of us parents feel.

It seems to be implemented in many sticky way for us not to point our finger, but critical race theory is turning our children against each other and telling them that you have -- you're either in press or oppressed or risking race and bringing it into the intersectionalty and bringing in gender.

So it's a very vast issue that we see implemented on every level from discipline to actual assignments to books, et cetera.

>> Ted: Tom, how would you teach classes with critical race theory in mind?

>> What I would like to do is contrast critical race theory with my values.

I believe we're all individuals, all brothers and sisters under the skin and our race is valuable.

They tell the students the most important thing about them is their race and if you're part of the majority, you should feel guilty because you're an oppressor and part of the minority, you should feel oppressed which robs people of motivation.

Anyone can achieve anything in this country if they work hard.

We are all individuals and judged on our merit.

As a result of that, they act against merit because they don't believe rewarding us based on what we've done or out hard, but what race we were born into and that's very un-American.

>> I agree with some of what's been said.

It's looking at everything through a lense of racism.

It's looking to the history and every event that happens through a lense of racism.

And the problem with that is when we teach our children and teachers to see race first, they judge based on race and don't go to learn who a person is based beyond their race.

I have never see seeing race first, where that has good consequences.

>> Ted: How do you teach based beyond that?

>> Critical race isn't teaching racism.

Racism happens.

It happens now and happened in the past.

We've seen slavery and you can teach about that accurately without seeing everything solely through the lense of race.

>> Ted: Are you saying it's an emphasis as opposed to a part?

>> It's a social theory.

It is teaching it this happened in the past and therefore, we have to counter that with these actions in the future.

>> Ted: How should slavery and Jim crow and the civil war and now should this be taught in the classrooms and teachers know they have to be super careful when it comes to race?

>> They don't have to be super careful at all.

You teach have the events that happened factually.

It tells the story through perspective.

We need to teach our children the facts.

Yes, there was slavery in America, but if you taught children there was a civil war, they will not tear down statues of Lincoln because they'll understand he was leading the movement abolishing slavery and took a shot to his head for that.

The reason our children care, because they're not teaching them.

>> Ted: Are we seen a lot of Abraham Lincoln statues torn down?

>> No, but there are a lot of others.

>> Ted: A lot of others deal with race and how do you deal with those issues and teach those things?

Again, if critical race theory is opposed or mandated against, how do you do it?

>> Well, it's a myth that those of us against critical race theory, what we don't agree with is distorting history.

We believe treatments are there to teach students, objective facts and both sides of controversial issues and not abuse that to promote own itiology.

That's not the role of a teacher.

The main text is the 1619 project.

False things, destructive things that critical race theory.

It's life, liberty is pursuit of happiness, but to protect white slavery in the house from slavery.

Historians have looked at, not one scrap of paper that would support that.

It's a complete fabrication and that Lincoln was a racist and a man who freed the slaves and did more for humanitarian that did more for any person in history and they're teaching that Lincoln was a racist and teaching that the cruelty of capitalism from the cruelty of the plantation and that is pure markism.

We've learned that to bring people out of poverty is capitalism.

>> Ted: Michelle, comment on what Tom was said and a lot was said there and when you teach history, you have to look back at the tenor of the times and people are product of their times.

Can you do that and say, Lincoln was X, Y and Z, but he was A, B and C. >> Critical race theory is a way of looking at every decision they made was based on racism.

And clearly throughout history, a lot of decisions have been made and things have happened that had nothing to do with racism.

>> Ted: Nothing to do or the small part?

>> Depending on what we're talking about.

Definitely or country was to the founded to perpetuate racism and that's what some of these proponents say.

>> Ted: Do you think the legislations passed by lawmakers, should that guy and direct teachers in public schools?

>> I believe you cannot legislate culture.

We had laws passed in the last session.

We're trying to tell the teachers what to do.

I believe in autonomy for the teachers and if you want to go to a school that teachers critical race theory and other ideologies that you believe are good for your children, take your children to these schools and have them taught that.

But if we have our public funding go to the public schools they force us to have that as a part of our curriculum, that's a different issue.

That's the problem that I have with us forced to be subjected to the critical race theory in our school.

>> Ted: Tom, should legislators decide what books can and cannot be taught in schools?

>> It does not include the right to ignore state standards.

>> Ted: We're not talking right.

Should they be able to do that?

>> Yes, and I wrote a big when I was superintendent, and the bill passed and as attorney general, I enforced it and that's what we need to do in a bigger way because the problem is much bigger.

>> Ted: Michelle, should it be able to do that?

>> I think we should decide certain concepts that are destructive.

I did have a bill to work on trying to get critical race theory out of classrooms and focus on tenants that are completely unacceptable.

Anyone that is teaching our children that people should be judged based on skin color should not be teaching that.

That should not be allowed and nobody should promote those principles.

>> Ted: Shiry, underserved, disadvantaged students in these areas, these schools and classrooms and how best do you get to them and get a good education to them?

>> School choice.

The only way.

>> Ted: That's the only way?

>> That's the only way because the same people that stood in the way of the minority children from public schools 60, 70 years ago, the same people by the same doors, not letting them out and giving them opportunities.

The only way for you to be able to succeed is on the path for equal opportunity and when we're talking about equity, this is the problem that we in our equity versus equality.

>> Ted: They stick to their residence.

>> Let's talk about school choice.

We have open enrollments in Arizona, we have charter schools.

When the pandemic happened.

I could home school, which I did and I couldn't because I'm busy.

I could take them to a charterer school suspect waiting list from here until forever or a private school, which I had to patient out of pocket, which I was lucky enough to do.

Most families didn't and those children in the most areas, stayed home without the ability to learn.

>> Ted: Do you not up funding for those districts and those schools to get those computers kids into better schools that are near their homes?

>> You cannot get them into better schools because a lot of the schools in disadvantaged areas are F-graded and not good.

>> Doesn't matter how much money you spend on a school and on funding, it's not going to make the building better or make the teacher quality better or culture better.

>> Ted: Tom, do you agree with that?

>> To be a champion of parental choice.

When I was in the legislature, I championed charter schools and as a result, Arizona one number one in the nation and we had 10% in charter schools number two, Florida at 7%.

I think the district schools are important and I believe the way to do it to hold the district's accountable for low test scores.

When the district had low test scores, I would schedule the meeting and I could take over the district to report to me rather than the local school board and that got their attention and test scores came up and I scheduled a meeting and that motivated them.

>> Ted: Michelle, what do you think?

The numbers show most parents want their kids going to school near their home.

The other side, Democrats, they say lift those schools up and focus attention on them.

Are they wrong?

>> Most parents want schools if their communities and participate in their community school.

We've got to improve community schools.

You can give them all money in the world and if you don't hold them accountable, nothing changes.

You pay more money for the exact same results.

There are frameworks that work and we've seen the project momentum, for example, like in Avendale with all D's and F's and in five years, they're now all A's and B's because they went in with an improvement framework, they committed and did a lot of professional development.

Shiry said earlier you can't improve the quality of the teachers.

You can.

It takes hard work and a community of people that are willing to put in the work.

>> Ted: Does it take funding, as well?

>> Some, but less than you work.

>> Ted: What do you think about that, Shiry?

>> First of all, with teachers, one of our biggest problems, yes, you can improve the teacher's quality, but we need to make sure that happens on every level from personal development and the degrees from colleges.

This is where the problem begins.

Our teachers don't get enough good training to be able to manage the class and to be able to handle the class.

You have these big classroom, we're not doing them favors.

It's extremely difficult for a teacher to come into a class of 30, which most are on their phone the whole time, and try to deliver good instruction to them.

We have to work with all of the teachers.

>> Ted: How do you change that, then?

Go back to school choice because I'm the big advocate for school choice.

I believe the teacher's training needs to be not influenced by teacher's unions other groups.

When we're talking about teachers' personal development, emphasizes instruction, giving them tools to be able to deliver the information and I don't think that's what is happening in our schools.

>> Ted: Is that is not what's happening in our schools, Tom?

>> I have always been an advocate of adequate funding for schools because our future depends on it.

With adequate funding is accountability.

That's academy that holds a district accountable and financial accountability.

When funds are increased for the schools, that has to go for teacher salaries and administrators.

>> Ted: Teacher recruitment, retention.

We have a teacher shortage and why is that?

>> We poll teachers, what are your reason for leaving?

You might be surprised to learn that money is number five on the list now and that doesn't mean we're paying them enough.

We need to spend that money on that and not administration.

But the number one reason is that administrators do not support them on issues of discipline.

And so one of my initiatives is strict discipline to help because it's unbelievably frustrating when kids act up and they send them to the principal and the principal sends them back and blames them.

That's a tremendous injustice and I fill fight against that.

>> Ted: Can you remember the poll.

>> I don't remember.

It was administrators to support the teachers in discipline.

I served 24 years on a school board and we never reversed the teacher one time how an issue in one time.

We were known as the tougher district around and our test scores came up.

>> Ted: Let's talk about that, noncertified education.

Is that a good thing?

>> Depends on the person leading the classroom.

Sometimes our teacher prep programs are not as effective as woe like them to be.

And so, a lot of what you learn as a teacher -- I'm a teacher in the classroom and a lot of what I learned, I didn't learn from a teacher prep program.

I did do a teacher prep program and I learned that from being in the classroom and you learn a lot by doing and I learned it from my past experiences and so, yeah, we need to improve that teacher prep program and how they get ready.

>> Ted: Do you think that would help as far as full-time teachers are concerned?

>> We see more students entering teacher prep than in the past.

We're one of the few states seeing an increase.

You have to keep the ones there and by supporting them and mentoring and providing them with the support they need to be great teachers.

>> Ted: Do you think the overall tenor regarding education right now in Arizona shows support for teachers?

>> Not particularly.

I mean, we have a war right now between parents and teachers in a large regard and that's difficult and we have to get to a place where parents and teachers work together constructively.

>> Ted: Do you see that war occurring, A?

And B, how do you stop it?

>> In 2018, when they decided to strike on The Streets and put our kids behind.

When they came to us as taxpayers, we improved an initiative to give more money to the classroom and we wanted that and we still do.

The problem is, something happens where they don't receive that money and that's where the conversation needs to center on and these teachers need to understand, the people they elected, including the current superintendent who promised raises, she never delivered and they will never do that because that's a campaign.

>> Ted: You are quoted on your website keeping teacher pay low is intentional so it's used as a campaign issue.

Who is keeping teacher pay low and why are they doing it intentionally?

>> I don't want to say -- democrats or left or in education because why isn't the money to the teacher.

>> Ted: He was in education.

Let's not say democrat or republican.

I don't trust anyone in the system because regardless of your party affiliation, we have been doing things wrong.

Our teachers are not getting paid and not happier and I've been traveling all over the state and this year, they'll lose more teachers, forced to be masked, and forced to teach things that are not in line with morals and values, not to mention discipline which is huge.

>> Ted: Do you you think the education association would want to lose as many members as you say they would lose by promoting mask wearing?

>> I don't know if they have always have a good plan for what will happen.

They are a propaganda machine with what their ideology dictates.

>> Ted: Are Arizona leaders, the governor?

>> We need to make sure the funding goes for the class size and not wasted on access and we need to do better, as I said, supporting them.

If they have a well disciplined class, they're life is better than if kids can swear and get away with it which is wrong.

One of the things you raised, parents getting in involved and why?

Because Covid, kids being taught online and they were incredibly shocked by what they saw in terms of what they saw and the parents are getting involved as they always should have been.

As mentioned, we should do all of this working together but parents have a vital role to play.

In Virginia, a candidate said the parents have no input and saw they had no input.

>> Ted: Michelle, do you think -- do you trust Arizona teachers to teach Arizona children?

>> In general, yes, I think we have some amazing teachers in our state.

I work with Nancy Lindblon and she's incredible and the students love her and learn history from her in a way that helps to shape their future and it helps them become the people that they're capable of becoming and reach their potential.

We have incredible treatments that do an incredible job.

But we have some that bring their biases into the classroom and like to try into influence students to move along their value path.

That's not the place of a teacher.

>> Ted: Do you trust Arizona teachers to teach Arizona children?

>> I do, actually.

I see a lot of great teachers who have their heart broken, having to leave the profession or keep their mouth shut.

So I think we have great, you know, great teachers.

The problem is that they are misguided and some are not able to express themselves and do the job they want to do for our children and I think we need to support them from the top down.

>> Ted: Is what you just said supporting them from the top down?

>> In my role as a superintendent, I will support them by true professional development in our role as education.

Not to get them indoctrinated that don't relate to teaching and instructing a child.

I will give them tools.

>> Ted: To you believe teachers indoctrinated to do certain things?

>> My heroes who are teachers that love their subjects.

Social studies teachers that love social studies, math teachers who love math.

Those are my heroes.

I dealt with a lot in Tucson, who feel their job is to promulgate their ideology how an audience and we have to do something about it and parents have reacted strongly and it's time we do something.

>> Ted: Do you think parents should be able to sue teachers?

>> I'm not sure about suing teachers.

I'm not sure, is that in the bill to sue teachers, but a system where the system insists on what they and if we have the right leadership, we don't need people suing, but the right leadership making sure the teachers are accountable.

Those who want to teach subjects, I love them and they're fantastic.

Those who preach ideology, they need to change.

>> Ted: Michelle, should parents be able to sue?

>> I think there are situations and situations now where parents can sue teachers.

>> Ted: Right, especially if you don't like them to teach and they're not teaching it this way?

>> I think you can have a situation with the parent and teach and to elevate to the principal or school board, but there are occasions where parents have been ignored and told -- they've been disregarded told that's not a real thing and that's not happening and they've seen videos the worksheets and they know it's happening.

In those cases, I think the teacher discipline process we have in place is the appropriate place for those things to go.

>> Ted: Shiry, parents suing educators?

>> I think our job is not to get to the place where it's getting worse.

I think our job is to make things better and that we have better communication.

When a parent brings grievances to school board or administrator, it's addressed.

Right now the tendency is to ignore parents.

The communication level is so poor to where parents are enraged.

The education is a failure factory and parents are not happy and you see them all over the nation, practically everyday in school board meetings, angry and nobody is listening.

It's a monologue and not a dialogue.

>> Ted: Failure factories don't happen overnight and we continually, as well, at or near the bottom for spending.

Do you see any correlation there, as well?

>> No.

The spending this year is 14,000 per pupil and go to charter schools and a fraction of that and no business in the world that thrives more because you throw good money after bad.

>> Ted: So education funding is good enough for you?

>> We had $12 billion this year, which is the whole state budget.

We had that channeled towards education and they shouldn't be able to do good.

>> Ted: We've recovered before the great depression and pandemic?

>> The mismanagement is the problem.

>> Ted: Tom, have we recovered?

>> I said this earlier, maybe unusual for conservatives republicans, but we need more resources in our schools as long as their accountable to be sure the resources achieve academic results and financially the money is used for teacher salaries and small class size and not for administration.

The future is our kids.

And we're at the bottom of the barrel compared to the other 49 states per pupils.

Spending more money doesn't produce more education, but if it has accountability attached to it, then it.

>> Ted: Do you agree?

>> I think there's some areas, it does.

>> Ted: We're not meeting requirements under IDA.

We need transportation and special education.

And I think we do need to see teacher salaries increase and in order for that to happen, The school boards will have to pass that onto teachers and we had some districts when we gave enough for 20% raises that gave 3% raises over that time period.

Unfortunately, the money just didn't make it to the classroom because they were a large district that had declined in students and instead of administrating, they spent it on add minimum staters.

>> Ted: I think they would say we needed that to do infrastructures.

>> We revamped that to get that met and we've been doing that to make sure facility needs met.

In the district I'm talking about, they had, for example, three high schools with the highest -- the biggest one was 50% capacity and they could consolidate into the newer of the three buildings and not have to pay for improvements and their economy is that they could conceive and pass those extra money onto the teachers.

>> In my school board, when I became president, one of the first thing, we took people out of the district and put it in the classroom and our percentage of administration to the overall budget was 2.5%.

When I got in the legislature, I got a bill to make it 5%.

The in efficient districts had so much influence, I couldn't get the bill heard and that's a fight we need to have.

We could do it for 2.5% and the other district could do it for 5% and we'll have more money for more class size.

>> Ted: We're here because the superintendent of state instruction is to teach kids and get education to the best it can be.

I know school choice is your Alpha and omega, but how do you improve academic achievement?

Why is Arizona not known as the estate?

>> Some demographics.

We have common core, you know, that came into the state and I think that was one of the biggest problems that really lead us to where we've dumbed down our children and the overtesting that we're seeing has never really lead to more proficient students and that's something we have to -- I propose as soon as I get into office or before, to have a community that is going to review all of the standards.

Some are good and not held by some of the schools.

Cursive is a standard and not all teach that and we need to review and bring better ones in.

>> Ted: Should testing be required for high school graduation in Arizona?

>> That's a tricky one.

By definition, you have low standards, right?

If you're trying to get everybody through, the standards will be low and that's what happens with the no child left behind and all said we're not going to bring everybody back so everybody can move forward.

Well, we have so many students that are brilliant and soar and not allowing them that opportunity.

>> Ted: Have we dumbed down testing in Arizona as so described?

>> I think the tests we give now, the state-wide assessment is pretty intensive and fairly hard test.

And having said that, we have low pass rates of that test in the state.

And we've gotten to raise the bar on our students and gotten them to higher levels.

But yeah, we do have -- the assessments if you read the questions on the sample ones, you see those are hard questions.

>> Ted: Are they too hard?

>> They're able to achieve that and more.

>> Ted: Are we passing kids through even though they're not passing?

>> Yes, we are.

Unfortunately, especially in the middle school aged, students are passed on whether they learn anything or not and interesting, when I teach ninth graders in high school and talk to them about why they failed their seventh or eighth grade math classes because it didn't count.

Because everyone told me because I could go on.

>> Ted: I've been around long enough, Tom, when testing was a requirement here and that is one of the requirements, that it would be dumbed down and this is not required and do we need testing for graduation in Arizona?

>> Absolutely.

The bill passed and I was the first to enforce it.

When I was superintendent, every once in awhile, the 50 superintendents would tried ideas.

There are three bases for good education and number one, the quality of teachers and teacher leaders and curriculum and the motivation of the students.

We also often forget about that third factor.

When I left office and they stopped enforcing it, the teachers would say, do well on the test and the kids would say, why should I?

They don't do anything because there's no consequence for them and you can't have consequences for teachers if you don't have consequences for students.

The only way to teach a test is to do a lot of reading.

If the tests are correct, teaching the test is not a bad thing.

Teachers should teach things they're interested in, but it's important.

How would you feel about a doctor you go to and doesn't take your blood pressure.

We don't know how we're doing if you don't have good results.

>> Ted: How do you feel?

>> It's not proven to be in academic achievement for a child.

The way to find good indication with hand on the pulse in the classroom and knows the progression of a child.

To be honest, 60% of the kids in Arizona cannot read in third grade.

We've been doing something right when we have 60% of our kids unable after four years in school.

>> Ted: There is an achievement gap in Arizona and we talk about that in Arizona horizon.

How do you close that gap?

How do you focus on those kids because they're being left behind?

>> I was just in payson in Sunday and the school board voted to have a four-day school and the kids are roaming the streets and parting on Thursday and the scores and tests are unbelievable and they're struggling.

Think about this as an educator, you have a child Monday through Thursday and gone four days and not remembering anything that was done on Thursday.

Nobody is listening to their issues at all.

>> Ted: You don't like four-day school weeks what do you for those kids and elsewhere?

>> You teach children academics and remove the social and emotional learning, sexualizing, CNN.

>> Ted: What a grooming?

>> To accept things that they would not accept as normal.

>> Ted: Michelle, is this happening in Arizona?

>> I don't think it's rare.

>> One of my neighbors said one of her young son was acts as a ballerina.

In school, we had to pretend we're gay or transgender and that has no business in our schools.

>> Ted: Is that grooming.

>> Yes.

>> Ted: Is that grooming, Michelle?

>> Preparing them to receive sexual advances from an adult.

I think that these are inappropriate discussions for an elementary, or for any school, really, but I would define grooming differently.

>> An example, we had a situation in paradise valley and I spoke about this, the teacher gave a book called publically shamed and it's AP class in high school.

Intercourse and other things you would never think read by a minor and against the law to hand deliver such to a child.

>> Ted: Did someone press charges?

>> No, but someone got fired.

Parents don't have time for this.

They're struggling to provide for their families and people keep saying parents need to be more involved.

I get that and children have circumstances and the parents cannot help.

That's why the education system should be pure and productive for these children.

>> Ted: We got lost on the achievement.

As far as rural communities, underserved, poorer communities, low income, there is a gap and first of all, why is that gap there and what would you do?

>> We have to call them those kids.

Any time we have an us and them, we start to have different expectations and I think the improvement starts with having high expectations for all children.

All children are capable of learning at a high level if that's what you expect.

If that's what is expected from the time they start Kindergarten and even before, they are capable of achieving at high levels unless we don't expect them to.

It starts with allowing them to move up grade to grade without expecting them to meet expectations, without requiring that.

>> Ted: Again, I think critics of that theory would say you can't just keep holding Johnny and Susie back year after year.

>> Absolutely not, but when they know that's a possibility, they work harder, both parent and child, to make sure that child knows that, too.

>> Ted: I don't want to objective these students.

There are low income communities and there are rare communities where it's glaring and what would you do about?

>> You have to have high expectations.

Tom Solo wrote a conservative intellectual book about schools with predominantly high achievement.

Why?

The teachers were devoted and the kids performed.

If we have the proper expectations, then the kids perform.

When they don't perform, that's when we hold them accountable.

Roosevelt had low test scores and I spent almost as much time as I did on other districts to help them and when that didn't help, it got their attention and the test scores came up.

You hold districts accountable when they don't produce test scores and high expectations.

>> Ted: How do you reward them?

>> Financially and I've thought it's a mistake to give extra money to schools performing poor legislature and we should be giving money to schools performing well for everybody to perform well.

>> Ted: The argument is, the poorly performing schools, you are giving them less money and how will they improve with less money?

>> Well, I'm not talking about them having absolutely less money.

You know I've said I'm for more resources as long we have accountability, but we need to be focusing on rewarding success and not rewarding failure.

And some schools, they should lose their students.

If the parents know that the school is not doing well, they should be sending kids to charter schools.

But my focus was working with schools we had and telling them the fact that you have a different demographic because there are schools with same demographic that do well.

>> Ted: How do the low-performing schools become high performing when the high performing, they're getting all of the attention and rewards?

>> If you have a bad school somewhere, it's time for better management and maybe we need to look into having those so-called public schools maybe we have a charter operation in that school instead and especially, we want to keep them within the neighborhood.

We just had five schools in Glendale and where are we selling these buildings to the highest bidder and why not serve the community?

But with good education?

The bottom line, what is the goal?

Will we lose another year and everyday that goes by and the child is not getting the education they need, there's no re-do.

You can't retake those days.

Are we going to say, we'll keep doing what we've been doing?

That's insanity.

>> Ted: The voucher system, good way to support public schools?

>> Absolutely.

>> Public schools perform better with competition.

For as long you don't have competition, you have zero incentive to do anything better for the children who are the most important part.

>> Ted: Should wealthy parents benefit from the voucher program.

>> Wealthy benefits pay in and they should be benefiting from good education for their children, of course.

>> Ted, I want to go back to what you said about different results in difficult neighborhoods.

Some teachers complain and I think properly that they have kids that are behind when they come and they shouldn't be judged the same as teachers whose kids are ahead and so I have advocated a system for judging the schools that is based on value added rather than absolute test scores.

You test kids in the beginning and at the end.

A teacher in a poor district who has made a lot of progress may be entitled to a lot than kids that don't make a lot of progress.

>> Ted: Are you against testing all together?

>> No, I'm against overtesting that we see.

>> Ted: Do you think weover test?

>> No, we want some indication as to the progress, but we don't want the test as the focal point and that's what they're concentrating, on the teachers.

They don't have the autonomy to teach what they want to teacher.

>> In terms of time, we are overtesting.

Kids are spending -- when I was superintendent, I cut testing time in half by combining two different tests.

>> Ted: Vouchers, good?

>> When we started charters 30 years ago now, charters took off like wildfire and some of them were great and some of them were really bad and took advantage of parents and children rather than ensuring they got a good education, some took the money and ran.

Now we have a system that holds them accountable and a much better way and closes them.

>> Ted: Should wealthy families benefit from this system?

>> As I said earlier, they pay into this system and I can say them benefiting to some extent, as long we have accountability.

>> Ted: For those who say the ESA's, they syphon money away, you say?

>> In a what they do, but they're doing the education.

As long we make sure the students are attending a school educating them at a high level, then that money is going for the purpose.

>> Ted: Money syphoned away better spent?

>> No, it's not, and this is my answer the important thing is not the total funding but the funding per pupil.

If a lot of kids leave because they go elsewhere, they lose money but they lose the students and they have less teachers, less expenses.

The spending per pupil and not the school.

>> Ted: We have a minute and a half and I want your closing statements in.

The last question, your republican candidates for state superintendents and a lot of agreement on a variety of issue, not a Democrat among you.

With that in mind, Michelle, why should republicans vote for you in the primary?

>> I think I have the most experience and context within education.

I'm a mom, I'm a teacher.

I've served on a school board and state representative, chairing the education committee and I've seen the education community from so many different sides and I look into it.

>> Ted: Tom, why you and not them?

>> We have a lot of agreement and any one of the three would be better than the Democrat that's there now.

As a result, we've had a friendly primary and talked about our ideas and experience.

As far as experience, as I said, I think I'm best qualified to get critical race theory.

>> Ted: We're running out of time.

Why you and not them?

>> I was on a ballot with 12,600 signatures and I did not pay for one because the families of Arizona want someone from the outside to bring new yeahs to the education system.

>> Ted: I have to stop you.

Good conversation and good to have you and it's time now for closing and going in reverse order of the opening, we start with Shiry.

>> I hope you got an idea of who I am and what I'm trying to achieve.

The choice is clear.

I am different and we do agree on some things.

I have declared to be on a child's rescue Mission and the urgency is real and our children are sexualized, groomed and not receiving the education that they deserve in our schools.

We need to have some change agents and people that are working for the parents of the children first without having any strings attached or influenced by special interest groups.

My only special interest group that we put ourselves on the right track to bring change, excellence and happiness back to our children because they're not happy.

I hope I can earn your vote.

Thank you.

>> Ted: And now the closing statements from Tom horn.

>> I think I'm best qualified to achieve results that republican voters want, getting critical race theory out of school because I did it one and I can do it again.

Making sure are not in bilingual because I enforced that and I would do it again.

Making sure that our schools are accountable for the test scores, which is something I did and pushing for strict discipline in our classrooms so that our kids would learn and having our kid's aim not at proficiency but excellence.

We had a scholarship for kids that performed excellent on three state tests and I was a champion for in the legislature.

And also career technical education for those students not headed for college to prepare them for good careers not headed for college.

They have to be well prepared after they graduate from high school.

>> Ted: Our closing statement from Michelle.

>> I'm a mom, I'm a teacher and I've served on a legislature on policy for years.

I have the experience we need to surgically be made.

What makes them the top performing?

Arizona has great things going and we have amazing teachers and passionate involved education leaders and we have to work together with parents instead of against them to ensure that our students get a top-notch education and I believe we can do that.

>> Ted: Thank you very much and thank you to all candidates and programming note.

Our next debate is Wednesday when we host the republican candidate for congressional district two.

That's Wednesday, 5:00 and 10:00 p.m. on Arizona horizon and watch it again on AZPBS.org where you can catch all past programming.

>> Thank you, Ted, for running a great show.

>> Ted: I'm Ted Simons and you have a great evening.